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That is why it is not analogous.

Senator CLARK. Counsel has just handed me a copy of S. 1308, which includes on page 2, lines 12 through 17 the following, which I quote:

If the Commission determines after such investigation

That is an investigation which the Commission representatives testified is now being decentralized into regional offices,

If the Commission determines after such investigation that there is reasonable cause to believe the charge is true, the Commission shall endeavor to eliminate any such alleged or unlawful employment practice by informal methods in conference, conciliation, and persuasion. Nothing said or done during and as part of such informal endeavors may be made public by the Commission or used as evidence in a subsequent proceeding without the written consent of the persons concerned. Any officers or employee of the Commission who shall make public in any manner whatever any information in violation of this subsection shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, shall be fined not more than a thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than one year.

It seems to me that takes care of the objection you raised.

Mr. HUNT. Yes, sir. They could not use the evidence that they found in the conciliatory aspect of the procedure. In other words, the procedure under S. 1308 would provide that there is reasonable cause to find that there is discrimination, then they have to go through the conciliation approach.

Later if this is unsuccessful, then through a hearing—an adversary proceeding. Of course, they can't use the evidence that they found in the conciliation process.

But the fact remains that if the same parties for the Commission, same agents for the Commission, are part of the conciliatory proceeding they must know of evidence which is relevant to the case.

Whether they use it or not, at least they know where to go to find the
Senator CLARK. It seems a little bit attenuated to


ahead. Mr. HUNT. Fourth, the Secretary of Labor cites statistics that members of minority groups continue to have unemployment rates higher than other groups. He suggests the reason for this is resistance to title VII by employers.

The 1965 Manpower Report to the President states: That nonwhite workers remain heavily concentrated in such low-skilled jobs as laborers, domestics, and other relatively unskilled service occupations. The removal of discriminatory barriers has emphasized the extent to which negroes are ill prepared for today's jobs. Poor education has posed a major obstacle to the employment of Negroes in managerial, professional, technical, and other specialized occupations and fields.

This report which incidentally was prepared by the Department of Labor, clearly suggests that the answer to the problem of providing employment opportunities is through educational and training programs and the chamber supports that procedure. Senator CLARK. That is one facet, and I thoroughly agree


you, but it does not follow from that that the need does not exist for ceaseand-desist power where there is a qualified applicant from a minority group who is being discriminated against.

In other words, there are two facets to this problem.

Mr. Hunt. Yes, sir, you have to remove the barrier to employment. Then you have to qualify the person for that occupation. They have to go hand in hand.

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Senator CLARK. I agree with you that qualification is very important, Mr. Hunt. The chamber fully supports these training programs. In fact, yesterday, the president of the chamber, former Gov. Allan Shivers, in commenting on these expanded training and job opportunities for American youth, said:

The Chamber re-emphasizes its encouragement to employers to give particular attention to the ways the young and inexperienced job seekers can prepare for and obtain productive employment, and urges organized labor to cooperate in this worthy endeavor.

Senator CLARK. Did you say former Gov. Allan Shivers, of Texas, is president of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce? Mr. HUNT. Yes, sir; he is the new president. If I can summarize, employers are making great efforts to provide employment opportunities for members of minority groups, Conciliation has worked effectively and will continue to work effectively. There is ample authority under existing law to enforce title VII. There is no need to vest this authority in the Commission. The problem must be attacked not only through fair employment legislation but also through educational and training programs.

The business community has provided the leadership and will continue to do so in the future. This is also an area where business, labor, and Government must work together. We firmly believe it will be a step backward in the progress that is being made to make the Commission into another NLRB.

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, Mr. Hunt. You have been a very articulate and able witness on behalf of your client.

Mr. Hunt, Thank you. Senator CLARK. Our final witness this morning is Mr. Joseph J. Morrow, vice president for administration, Pitney-Bowes, Inc.

I recall that you appeared before us several years ago.



Mr. MORROW. Yes, I did, sir; in 1963. Senator CLARK. You have no prepared statement? Mr. MORROW. I have been traveling all week. Your letter caught up with me yesterday afternoon in Baltimore. Last night I scribbled my statement out on Mayflower Hotel stationery.

Senator CLARK. Sometimes we have to do that. Mr. MORROW. It is very brief. Senator CLARK. Go ahead in your own way. Mr. MORROW. My name is Joseph J. Morrow, vice president for administration of Pitney-Bowes, Inc., a southern Connecticut manufacturer of postage meters and other business machines. I am a member of the national board of trustees of the National Urban League. I am also a member of the advisory committee of the Community Relations Service.

It is a distinct pleasure for me to testify before your committee, Senator Clark. I had the honor of appearing before your committee on July 23, 1963, when I read and submitted a statement by our chairman of the board, Walter H. Wheeler, Jr., in support of the Civil

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Rights Act which became law the following year. Mr. Wheeler at the time was hospitalized.

We have now under consideration S. 1308 which gives the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission the authority to issue céaseand-desist orders. It seems to me that we should not have any law on the books which is not enforceable. As I understand it, in many cases, an individual must take his case to the courts himself, if he has been discriminated against in employment or in membership in a labor organization. This is asking a great deal of an individual who comes from a disadvantaged minority. To my mind, it just isn't practical. Laws are made to protect rather than to punish. Under bill S. 1308, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission would be given the authority, in fact the duty, to protect the individual who has suffered discrimination.

At Pitney-Bowes we decided to integrate our work force over 20 years ago simply because we felt it was the right and decent thing to do. We had no fair employment practices legislation in the State of Connecticut at the time; the fair employment law was enacted several years later in 1947. The effectiveness of Connecticut's law, through good administration, is attested to by the fact that employers within the State have experienced little or nothing in the way of personnel problems because of adherence to the law; and that the general walkouts, loss of business, and other dreadful happenings prophesied by the law's opponents have never materialized. Thus, no dramatic upheaval has followed the enactment of fair employment practices legislation in Connecticut, and the State commission has the authority to issue cease-and-desist orders. The Commission has used its “big stick” scarcely at all, but the knowledge that it is there has undoubtedly helped obtain employment for many victims of prejudice.

The vast mapority of employers in commerce and industry and of labor unions are observing the civil rights law. However, none of us pretends that discrimination is nonexistent. The intent to discriminate in employment, if skillfully concealed, is sometimes difficult to detect. Bill S. 1308 provides the Commission with more effective means with which to combat violations of the law.

While the long-range solution to the problem of racial injustice is to change the hearts and minds of men, it does not argue against the provision of basic minimum standards of justice and opportunity through laws, particularly when the majority of our citizens agree that such laws are necessary, as I am convinced they now do.

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, Mr. Morrow, for your very helpful testimony.

As I recall, you told us when you were here 4 years ago, that your company never had any problem with equal employment opportunity and you had a good many members of minority groups on your payroll and indeed had done some on-the-job training to upgrade the skills of people in the neighborhood of your plants where there were some low-income groups who desperately needed employment.

Isn't that correct?
Mr. MORROW. That is right.
Senator CLARK. I am happy to see you come on as representative
of a good-sized and successful company right after the testimony

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of the Chamber of Commerce of the United States which opposes this bill. I do appreciate your coming here. Mr. MORROW. Thank you. Senator CLARK. Senator Javits. Senator Javits. I have no questions. I know the Pitner-Bowes company very well. It has a very fine reputation. Mr. MORROW. Thank you. Senator Javits. In this field especially. Senator CLARK. Thank you very much. Senator JAVITS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have recalled Mr. James W. Hunt. I understand he has actually left. Would the Chair call and see if he is here? Senator CLARK. I think he has left. Is Mr. Hunt here? Mr. Hunt is gone. Senator JAVITs. Mr. Chairman, I would just make the following observation for the record, I have a number of questions for Mr. Hunt which I will ask him in writing. The particular question I am most interested in is that I would like to have a report from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce as to the experience in the 31 States which have cease-and-desist order procedures in their State employment antidiscrimination laws.

Indeed, I would like their experience in the 38 States. Question No. 1: And especially the 31 with cease-and-desist order procedures.

Second, I would like to understand from them whether they oppose cease-and-desist order procedures in the six States which were recently added to the 25 that had it and if so, wlıy.

Third, I would like specifically their experience in the State of New York. I might say parenthetically in the State of New York it has worked very well and there have been very few cases, including

court cases.

I should be very much interested in where the chamber gets these objections to the procedure which both the administration bill and the bill filed by me with Senators Kuchel and Case seek to set up.

Senator Clark. If the Senator will have the questions which he wishes to direct to Mr. Hunt prepared by minority counsel, I certainly will be glad to see that they are sent to him in the name of the subcommittee.

Senator Javits. Mr. Chairman, I request also that, if he does not answer them, that he be recalled.

Senator CLARK. The Senator certainly has that right. We will take it under consideration in due course. I know the Senator is the last man in the world who wants to hold up the passage of adequate equal employment legislation.

There is some problem as to when we can get this bill out of the subcommittee and to the floor.

The committee will stand in recess until 2:30 p.m. this afternoon at which time a panel of directors and commissioners of State fair employment practice commissions will appear.

(Whereupon, at 10:30 a.m., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 2:30 p.m. the same day.)

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