Question. How did you get to know the sign?

Answer. It was given to me by one who, I suppose, was one of the members.

Question. Did he understand you to be one?

Answer. No, sir, not at that time.

Question. How came he to give it to you?

Answer. I asked him to give it to me in order that I might try and check the thing; I was trying to keep it down as much as possible.

Question. Who was he?

Answer. This man Saunders, who, I told you, died at Asheville, North Carolina; he was poisoned by his wife there.

Question. When was it?

Answer. In 1867; the early part of 1867.

Question. Were you trying to suppress the organization, or the outrages you speak of ? Answer. I was trying to suppress the outrages.

Question. Outrages committed by colored men?

Answer. By all people; my object was to keep peace

Question. Did you want to suppress that organization?
Answer. Yes, sir; I did suppress it.

Question. How?

Answer. Had it broken up and disbanded.

Question. What influence did you exert in disbanding it?

Answer. I talked with different people that I believed were connected with it, and urged its disbandment, that it should be broken up.

Question. In the light of that statement, is it not probable that this part of the account of the interview with you is correct?

"Since its organization the leagues have quit killing and murdering our people. There were some foolish young men who put masks on their faces, and rode over the country, frightening negroes; but orders have been issued to stop that, and it has ceased."

Answer. I never uttered such words; I did not talk to that man twenty words? Question. You say you were trying to stop the proceedings, and that they did stop? Answer. Yes, sir; and I think they completely stopped. I do not hear of anything of that kind now-of difficulties there-any more than I hear of them here. I think that since 1868 that organization has been disbanded. I do not think there has been any organization together; if there has been, it has been by irresponsible parties, without any organization at all.

Question. What was the object of their pass-word ?

Answer. I presume like any other pass-word.

Question. What was their pass-word ?

Answer. I cannot tell you now.

Question. Did you know?

Answer. At one time I believe I did know one of their pass-words, but I have forgotten what it was.

Question. Was it Shiloh?

Answer. No, sir, I never heard that given as a pass-word.

Question. When you got the sign and the pass-word, did you not also get the name

of the organization, so as to be able to fill the blank in the prescript?

Answer. Well, I believe it was called the Ku-Klux organization; I do not know whether the young man gave it to me at that time or not. It was in the road, when we were talking about it.

Question. Then you at least had the confidence of the organization?

Answer. I had the confidence of the southern people, I think.

Question. Was there any political object whatever in this organizatior

Answer. There never was, that I ever heard of.

Question. You say you have seen this sign recognized; where?

Answer. The sign I saw recognized, I believe-well, I do not recollect now where it was; whether in the house or on the road.

Question. Was it in Tennessee?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Did you ever see it recognized any place else?

Answer. No, sir, I never did.

Question. Against whom did this organization operate?

Answer. I do not think it operated against any person particularly; I think it was, as I said before, an organization for the protection of southern people against mobs, and rapes, and things of that sort. I never knew any portion of the organization to commit any deed.

Question. Did you never understand that they went out and took persons from their homes and whipped them?

Answer. That was the newspaper rumor.

Question. Of all those you have heard of being whipped were any democrats?

Answer. Well, I do not know that they were; I do not recollect whether they were

democrats or what they were. I heard of some men who had been stealing horses being whipped, and I heard of men being whipped who had been whipping their wives; and I heard of negroes being whipped who had been committing outrages, or something of that sort-caught on the road with things in their possession. They were thrashed. Question. Did you ever hear of any other persons except those charged with offenses of this kind being visited by this party?

Answer. I heard of Boyd and others being killed; but that came more directly under my eye, from the fact that I was building my road and passing through the country there.

Question. Was it not your information that the men who killed Boyd came there in the same kind of uniform and disguise as was used by these men in Tennessee ?

Answer. I never heard; I understood they were disguised, but I never understood what was the disguise.

Question. What was the manner in which these men were disguised in Tennessee ? Answer. In almost every shape.

Question. Did they have masks over their faces?

Answer. I think some had masks.

Question. Did they have high caps on their heads?

Answer. Some of them had caps, some had none at all.

Question. Did they have loose gowns?

Answer. I do not think there was any uniform that they adopted. I heard of some having on black gowns, some red gowns, and some with white sheets wrapped around them. I do not think there was any uniform.

By Mr. BECK:

Question. How long since you have read over this article in the Cincinnati Commercial of September 1, 1868, purporting to give the interview with you?

Answer. I have never read it since shortly after it was published. It was a matter like many others. There were a great many things said in regard to myself that I looked upon as gotten up merely to affect the elections in the North. I felt that was the object of it. I passed it by, and have not thought of it since.

Question. They have been in the habit of writing a great many things about you in the newspapers.

Answer. Particularly about that time the papers were full of them, not only all the papers, but people all over the Northern States were making speeches denouncing me; at least they were so reported in the papers.

Question. You did not profess to answer what you saw generally in the newspapers ? Answer. I did not; I felt it was useless, that it would have no effect.

Question. You do not even now know the contents of this article, except such portions of it as the Chairman has read to you to-day?

Answer. I do not; I do not recollect having read it since that time.

By Mr. POLAND:

Question. The letter which you wrote yourself, and which was published, you wrote after reading the article in the newspaper?

Answer. Yes, sir; I wrote that letter after reading the article in the paper.
Question. You then knew what it was?

Answer. Yes, sir.

By Mr. BECK:

Question. This is your letter:

"MEMPHIS, September 3, 1868.

"DEAR SIR: I have just read your letter in the Commercial, giving a report of our conversation on Friday last. I do not think you would intentionally misrepresent me, but you have done so, and I suppose you mistook my meaning. The portions of your letter to which I object are corrected in the following paragraphs :

"I promised the legislature my personal influence and aid in maintaining order and enforcing the laws. I have never advised the people to resist any law, but to submit to the laws until they can be corrected by lawful legislation.

"I said the militia bill would occasion no trouble, unless they violated the law by carring out the governor's proclamation, which I believe to be unconstitutional and in violence of law, in shooting men down without trial, as recommended by that proclamation.

"I said it was reported, and I believed the report, that there are 40,000 Ku-Klux in Tennessee; and I believe the organization stronger in other States. I meant to imply, when I said that the Ku-Klux recognized the Federal Government, that they would obey all State laws. They recognize all laws and will obey them, so I have been informed, in protecting peaceable citizens from oppression from any quarter.

"I did not say that any man's house was picketed. I I did not mean to convey the idea that I would raise any troops, and, more than that, no man could do it in five days, if they were organized.

I said that General Grant was at Holly Springs and not at Corinth; I said the charge against him was false, but I did not use the word 'liar.'

"I cannot consent to remain silent in this matter; for if I do, under an incorrect impression of my personal views, I might be looked upon as one desiring a conflict, when, in truth, I am so adverse to anything of the kind that I will make any honorable sacrifice to avoid it.

"Hoping that I may have this explanation placed before your readers, I remain, very respectfully," &c.

Did I understand you to tell the Chairman that you did not undertake to correct all the misrepresentations of the correspondence, but only such things as you thought did you personal injustice?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Leaving the false misrepresentations to stand for what they were worth? Answer. That is what I intended to do. In fact, I did not want to go into a long detail of the thing. I said to this gentleman that I believed there was such an organization from the best information that I could get. But as to the numbers I did not tell him, because I knew nothing about the numbers. I said to him that I did not believe there would be any conflict with the people of Tennessee, unless the militia went out and attempted to destroy the people, as Governor Brownlow's proclamation indicated.

Question. What was your understanding of that proclamation of Brownlow? I have forgotten all about it.

Answer. I have not read the proclamation since it first came out. I was very actively engaged, and have been since that time, in trying to build railroads and establish factories and founderies in the country. I have been traveling and working all the time, and I have not thought anything about these things. My recollection of his proclamation is that the militia should not be punished, or would not be punished, for any depredations they might commit upon rebels; that the people there would be treated as rebels, &c.; intimating that if a man killed a man who had been in the southern army, there would be nothing done with him.

By Mr. VAN TRUMP:

Question. That proclamation was issued after the close of the war?

Answer. Yes, sir; in 1866 or 1867, I believe; about the time of this organization. Question. Do you not know the fact that these leagues were organized before the KuKlux was heard of?

Answer. I do not know whether it was or not; but that was my understanding-that this organization was organized after the proclamation and after those leagues.

By Mr. BECK:

Question. What was the effect upon the people of Tennessee as to their sense of security of life and property, and the safety of their wives and children, after that proclamation of Brownlow; whatever may have been the language of it, what impression was produced upon the people of Tennessee by it?

Answer. It produced a great deal of fear and trepidation on the part of the people; they feared the militia would undertake to carry out the idea of the proclamation.

By Mr. VAN TRUMP:

Question. It was a kind of amnesty for any future depredations this militia might commit.

Answer. Yes, sir; that was the intent of the proclamation; at least the southern people so looked upon it. If a man belonging to the militia should shoot you and me down, if we were southern men, there would be nothing done to him.

By Mr. BECK:

Question. That was the impression made upon the people?

Answer. Yes, sir; and then the Loyal League coming in about the same time, and these rapes being committed, and the impudent colored people constantly toting about arms, firing in the night-time, created a great deal of uneasiness in the thick neighborhoods, where there were negroes; but in the poorer neighborhoods I do not think that insecurity was felt.

Question. Were the white people disarmed by Brownlow's orders, and forbidden, in organized bodies, to carry arms?

Answer. I think so; I do not recollect now.

Question. Was that the fact?

Answer. That was the understanding.

Question. Were the militia composed mostly of colored men?

Answer. No, sir; not in that part of the State; I think that in the middle portion of the State the most of them were white men, but I think some colored troops were out.

Question. That militia was organized under that proclamation, and substantially took possession of the police of the country?

Answer Yes, sir.

Question. While they were in power, was it the fact that there were cases of rape, arson, house-breaking, and other crimes?

Answer. There were cases of that sort reported throughout the country; I do not know to what extent; and there were cases where they were tried and put in the penitentiary, and the governor pardoned them at once; they were turned loose; I merely heard of one or two cases, but I do not recollect them now.

By Mr. VAN TRUMP:

Question. Was not the very name of Brownlow at that time a terror to the people of Tennessee?

Answer. It was; they were very much frightened.

By Mr. BECK:

Question. So that his militia were not regarded as being put out in good faith for the protection of the people, but to put down one party and elevate the other for his own political aggrandizement.

Answer. That was the understanding, and a great many men had to fly the country in East Tennessee; and a great many have not gone back yet. A great many who had been in the southern army were killed, when they returned home, by Union men. There was more bitterness there than in any other part of the country.

By Mr. VAN TRUMP:

Question. East Tennessee was Brownlow's residence before he was governor?
Answer. Yes, sir.

By Mr. BECK:

Question. You say that whatever organization of Ku-Klux, or anything else, took place in the region of country with which you are familiar, it was gotten up through fear of depredations by the militia, and was the result of that state of things? Answer. That is my understanding of it.

Question. And for the protection of themselves where the law was considered powerless?

Answer. According to my understanding, the organization was intended entirely as a protection to the people, to enforce the laws, and protect the people against outrages. Question. Without any regard to whether they were perpetrated by democrats or republicans?

Answer. Yes, sir, I do not think that would make any difference; that is, that is my impression, while I do not know that is so; that was the general understanding in the community.

Question. So far as you had any understanding or information, was it to act upon elections in any shape or form?

Answer. No, sir, I never heard it said it was to have anything to do with electious.

By Mr. VAN TRUMP :

Question. In Tennessee you did not care much about elections then?

Answer. A large portion of the people in the State were disfranchised, and they did not attempt to make any effort to carry elections.

By Mr. BECK:

Question. Did there not come a change for the better over Tennessee in 1868, in the management of their laws?

Answer. As I said before, this organization was dispersed.

By Mr. STEVENSON:

Question. When was it dispersed?

Answer. In the early part of 1868.

Question. Do you mean in the spring of 1868?

Answer. Yes, sir; well, it might have been in the early part of the summer months; I cannot say, I do not know now.

By Mr. BECK:

Question. This communication, in the Cincinnati Commercial, bears date of the 1st of September, 1868. Were you speaking of the then existing state of things, or a previously existing state of things?

Answer. The letter I wrote was in answer to the letter this man had written.
Question. That was in September?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. And you think that at that time the organization had been disbanded ? Answer. Well, it must have been later than that; it must have been in the latter part of 1868, I reckon, that it was disbanded.

Question. Later than you first thought?

Answer. Yes, sir, I think it must have been in the latter part of 1868.

Question. The date of this communication would indicate that it was later than you first said?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. When was Senter elected governor of Tennessee; in 1868 or 1869 ?

Answer. I do not recollect; I have never voted, and have not paid any attention to the elections.

Question. You never have voted?

Answer. I voted a short time ago at Memphis for a subscription to build a railroad.

By Mr. VAN TRUMP:

Question. That was not a political vote?

Answer. No, sir; I have never offered a political vote; that is the only vote I have cast since the war.

By the CHAIRMAN :

Question. Did you vote in 1868 ?

Answer. No, sir.

By Mr. BECK:

Question. You could not?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. At that time there was a large number of men in Tennessee disfranchised? Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. And you were one of them?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. When that organization was disbanded in 1868, what was the information you had as to the reason why it was disbanded?

Answer. That there was no further use for it; that the country was safe; that there was no apprehension of any trouble.

Question. You believed the laws would be vindicated without any interference of the people to protect themselves?

Answer. Yes, sir; Governor Brownlow had modified himself very much; the laws were going on and being respected and executed.

Question. Is it your understanding that persons who, of late, within the last year or two, have been disguising themselves and violating the law, haye been doing it as mere temporary organizations?

Answer. I think it has been among wild young men and bad men; I do not think they have had any such organization.

Question. They have been called by the same name of the original organization that

once existed?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. What is the length of your line of railroad?

Answer. It is two hundred and eighty miles.

Question. Running through the counties you have named?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. During the last year or two has there been any serious trouble among the people, white or black, along that line of road?

Answer. I have heard of but three cases. One is where they took out a man who had been arrested and put in jail for stealing horses. Another was at Greensboro in regard

to the probate judge, who was a southern man living there. I understood these men came to his house; in fact, Judge Blackford came to me for protection, and I did protect him for a week.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. He was the probate judge?

Answer. Yes, sir; they got after him, but he made his escape.

By Mr. BECK:

Question. In what county was that?

Answer. In Hale County.

Question. How long ago?

Answer. I suppose five or six months ago.

Question. That was the horse thief?

Answer. No, sir; these men went there and turned out the horse thief. They went down after Blackford, who made his escape. I myself came there the next day, and he came to me and I protected him until he went away; finally he left the country. I do not know where he went. I heard that he had been appointed an agent in the mail service; probably, in Alabama.