Question Where did you believe it was organized ?

Answer. I have no idea where it was organized.

Question. I want your opinion about it, not your knowledge, your impression about it?

Answer. I remarked that I thought it originated in Middle Tennessee.

Question. Where did this thing spring up?

Answer. I do not know.

Question. What is your impression, what place?

Answer. I have no knowledge.

Question. Do you say in Middle Tennessee?

Answer. I think in Middle Tennessee. I have no idea what place, or who started it. Question. Have you never heard?

Answer. It has been said I organized it; that I started it.

Question. Is that so?

Answer. No, sir; it is not.

Question. You do not know who did?

Answer. I do not know who did it. It was afterward said that it was gotten up at Johnson's Island when there were prisoners there.

Question. Among the rebel prisoners?

Answer. Yes, sir; but nobody knows, I reckon, where it was started. I never heard a man say that he knew who started it; I do not know myself.

Question. You were then living in Memphis?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Did you not know that an organization of it was talked of there and exposed in the papers?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Did you never hear of that?

Answer. Yes, sir; I heard of it, but it was not an organization.

Question. What was it?

Answer. I understood it was a lot of twelve and fourteen-year old boys who had got it up. Question. Something like the Ku-Klux organization?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. From whom did you understand that?

Answer. From rumor; I was not in Memphis at the time that was talked of, but it was always my impression that it was a farce; that it was a lot of boys.

Question. They seemed to have a constitution?

Answer. I do not think they had; I never heard they did. I knew a part of the boys; they were twelve or fourteen or fifteen years old; that is, I knew boys who, it was said, were caught there that night.

Question. Did not the Ku-Klux admit young boys?

Answer. I think not.

Question. How old did they require them to be?

Answer. I do not know; but I do not think they admitted boys, though.

Question. What is your knowledge on that subject?

Answer. My information was that they admitted no man who was not a gentleman, and a man who could be relied upon to act discreetly; not men who were in the habit of drinking, boisterous men, or men liable to commit error or wrong, or anything of that sort; that is what I understood.

Question. Into what States did you understand that the organization extended? Answer. It was reported that there was an organization in Mississippi; that was the

rumor.

Question. In what other State?

Answer. And it was reported that there was one in North Alabama.

Question. Where else?

Answer. Probably it was reported that it was in North Carolina, about where this man Saunders died, about Asheville; those are the only States I recollect of.

Question. Did you not hear of it in Louisiana?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Did you hear of the Knights of the White Camelia there?

Answer. Yes; they were reported to be there.

Question. Were you ever a member of that order?

Answer. I was.

Question. You were a member of the Knights of the White Camelia ?

Answer. No, sir; I never was a member of the Knights of the White Camelia.

Question. What order was it that you were a member of?

Answer. An order they called the Pale Faces; a different order from that.
Question. Where was that organized?

Answer. I do not know.

Question. Where did you join it?

Answer. In Memphis.

Question. When?

Answer. It was in 1867; but that was a different order from this.

Question. What was that?

Answer. Something like Odd Fellowship, Masonry, orders of that sort, for the purpose of protecting the weak and defenseless, &c.

Question. Something on the same principles that the Ku-Klux afterward had?

Answer. Something similar to that, only it was a different order, for the purpose of preventing crime, and for the purpose of protecting each other in case of sickness, or. anything-preventing disorder.

Question. By whom?

Answer. By anybody.

Question. From whom did you apprehend disorder?

Answer. We apprehended disorder at that time from nearly everybody. There was a great deal of disorder from all political parties.

Question. Particularly from what class?

Answer. From both classes. There was the greatest bitterness there betwixt the soldiers of the two armies-not particularly so in my neighborhood, but in East Tennessee, and in portions of Middle Tennessee. About Memphis we had no trouble at all; we never had any trouble at Memphis.

Question. You had this order there?

Answer. It existed there.

Question. Did it extend over Tennessee?

Answer. I do not know whether it did or not.

Question. Had that order any constitution?

Answer. I never saw any, if it had one.

Question. Had it any sort of ritual?

Answer. No, sir; I think not.

Question. Had it any limitations as to membership?

Answer. I cannot tell you that, for I was never in the organization but once or twice.

I went there more to see what was going on than anything else, and paid very little attention to it.

Question. Did they admit boys into the order?

Answer. I do not think they did.

Question. Did they admit negroes?

Answer. I do not think they did.

Question. Did they admit women?

Answer. I do not think they did.

Question. It was an organization of white men?

Answer. I think so.

Question. And from that they called it Pale Faces?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Had it any signs?

Answer. I do not recollect any of them.

Question. They had them?

Answer. I suppose they had.

Question. Did it have any pass-words?

Answer. I do not recollect whether it did or not; I never was in it but twice.

Question. Did it have any grips?

Answer. I do not think so.

Question. Did you take any oath ?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Was it a secret organization?

Answer. I suppose it was. I was invited around there once or twice, and they sup.

posed I was all right and would not divulge anything.

Question. Who invited you?

Answer. Some of the members.

Question. Who were they?

Answer. I cannot tell you now.

Question. Why not?

Answer. I do not recollect.

Question. How many were there?

Answer. I do not think there were more than one or two.

Question. How many were present?

Answer. I do not recollect.

Question. About how many?

Answer. I have no idea.

Question. Were there forty or fifty?

Answer. I do not think there were more than a dozen when I was there.

Question. Where did they meet?

Answer. In a hall or a room.

Question. In Memphis?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Where in Memphis

Answer. I believe it was on Second street.

Question. In whose building?

Answer. Well, I do not recollect that now.
Question. Do you remember who were present?
Answer. No, sir.

Question. You do not remember any of them?
Answer. I do not remember.

Question. You do not remember the name of one of them?

Answer. No, sir; I might, if I had time to think the matter over, recollect these things. In the last two years I have been very busily engaged. I came out of the war pretty well wrecked. I was in the army four years; was on the front all the time, and was in the saddle more than half my time; and when I came out of the army I was completely used up-shot all to pieces, crippled up, and found myself and my family entirely dependent. I went into the army worth a million and a half of dollars, and came out a beggar. I have given all my time since then, so far as was in my power, to try to recover.

Question. About this order of Pale Faces; you understand that to be a secret order? Answer. Yes, sir; just as Odd Fellowship and Masonry would be, and I presume the Loyal League was.

Question. So when I asked you if you belonged to the Knights of the White Camelia, and you said you did, you at first thought I was referring to the Pale Faces? Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. The principles were about the same?

Answer. I do not know what the White Camelia's were.

Question. It professed to be an order for the protection of white people against disorders, particularly by the blacks.

Answer. The great fear of the people at that time was that they would be dragged into a revolution something like San Domingo.

Question. A war of races?

Answer. Yes; a war of races. The object of the people was not to disobey the laws of the country, but to see them enforced and to fortify themselves against anything of the sort. That was my understanding of all these things.

Question. Of all these orders, Ku-Klux, Pale Faces, Knights of the White Camelia? Answer. No, sir; I do not know anything about the Knights of the White Camelia; I never heard of them before. The object of the organization was to prevent a general slaughter of women and children, and to prepare themselves to resist anything of the kind.

Question. Was not that same apprehension broadcast all over the South, so far as your being in fear of a negro insurrection or a war of races?

Answer. I think it was. During the war our servants remained with us, and behaved very well. When the war was over our servants began to mix with the republicans, and they broke off from the Southern people, and were sulky and insolent. There was a general fear throughout the country that there would be an uprising, and that with those men who had stopped among us-those men who came in among us, came there and went to our kitchens and consulted with the negroes-many of them never came about the houses at all. It was different with me. I carried seven Federal officers home with me, after the war was over, and I rented them plantations, some of my own lands, and some of my neighbors'. In 1866 those seven officers made a crop in my neighborhood. I assisted those men, and found great relief from them. They got me my hands, and they kept my hands engaged for me.

These men

Question. The negroes had confidence in them because they were Northern men? Answer. Yes, sir. I persuaded our people to pursue the same course. were all young men, and they made my house their home on Sundays.

Question. It seems you had more confidence in Northern men than others down there had?

Answer. I think I had.

Question. You say there was a general feeling all through the South, at least there was in Tennessee, of apprehension of general trouble with the negroes, out of which grew this organization?

Answer. That was the cause of it.

Question. Is it not your impression that this organization and that same feeling extended generally through the South?

Answer. I cannot say; I never heard of that.

Question. What is your impression?

Answer. My impression is that it did not.

Question. Would not the same cause produce like effects?

Answer. I think it would; but I do not think they existed throughout the South.

Question. Simply because you have not heard of them?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Did you hear of them in Arkansas?

Answer. I cannot say I did. They had a terrible difficulty in Arkansas there; the militia was brought out and hung a great many men.

Question. I am not speaking of those troubles. But did you not hear of the existence of Ku-Klux, or something of that kind, in Arkansas?

Answer. It was reported that they were on White River; that is the only place I heard of them.

Question. On the Upper White River?

Answer. In Arkansas.

Question. Was it on the Upper White River?

Answer. I do not know whether it was the Upper or the Lower White River; I think it was about the middle; I think about Circe, Arkansas.

Question. Did you not hear of troubles in Louisiana-massacres, bloodshed there, conflicts of the races?

Answer. We frequently heard of them in different places.

Question. Was there nothing said about Ku-Klux, or Knights of the White Camelia, in connection with that?

Answer. I never heard anything of it.

Question. Your business led you East?

Answer. Immediately after the war, in 1866, I planted.

Question. I am speaking more particularly of 1868.

Answer. In 1867 I was in the insurance business, as president of a fire-insurance company, and I organized a life-insurance company. My business was principally in Tennessee and Alabama, but my health became so bad that I could not travel, and remained at home. In 1868 I went into this railroad business, and since the fall of 1868 my whole time has been occupied in that.

Question. And your railroad business leads you East?

Answer. Southeast, in the direction of Selma, Alabama.

Question. So that you would not be so likely to hear of what took place west of.the Mississippi?

Answer. Of course I would have heard; I suppose it is published in the papers.
Question. Have you heard of anything of this sort in Texas?

Answer. I do not think I have; I have heard of some difficulties there among the republicans, radicals as we call them, and scalawags, what we called renegades, Southern men who joined the federal army; they had difficulty all over the country. Question. Do you call everybody who was in the rebel army and afterwards joined the republicans-do you call them scalawags

Answer. Yes, sir, generally.

Question. And the people from the North who go down there are called carpet-baggers?

Answer. They are distinguished in that way; they are not all called carpet-baggers. Question. Why not?

Answer. There is a difference betwixt them. Some men go down there and go to planting, and do not have anything to do with politics; behave themselves, and do not mix with the negroes more than white people. They are looked upon as a different class of people.

Question. They are not called carpet-baggers.

Answer. I do not know that they are called anything except Southern citizens. I know some men who stand as fair in Mississippi, Tennessee, and Alabama as anybody we have there.

Question. Men who go there, spend money, attend to business, and keep out of politics. Answer. I suppose they vote; but then they are not running all over the country holding Loyal Leagues and negro meetings.

Question. Making stump speeches?

Answer. Yes, sir; but they are quiet people, attending to their business as most other people do.

Question. What do you call Southern gentlemen who go about the country making democratic speeches, organizing the democratic party, and getting it into line? Answer. They are called democrats, I reckon.

By the CHAIRMAN :

Question. Suppose one of that class of whom you have been speaking who has gone down there and attended to planting, but has been quiet politically, although he is a republican, suppose he should take the stump and go to making political speeches, would that change the current of opinion against him

Answer. Very much. I do not mean if he was a gentleman, and took the stump and made a canvass like other gentlemen did; he would not be looked upon just as those who go around with the negroes, and board and sleep with the negroes.

Question. Suppose he asserts publicly on the stump the political opinions he enter tains, in a proper manner, would he be visited with any reprobation or ostracism for taking that position?

Answer. I think not; I never heard of one that was.

Question. Take General Warner, of Alabama; I understand that he went down there and went to planting.

Answer. I do not know him; I never saw him but once in my life; he was introduced to me in Montgomery. I would suppose that if General Warner was to behave himself and act as I have said, I am satisfied he would be treated as I have indicated.

By Mr. STEVENSON:

Question. Now to go back to this talk with Mr. Woodward; did you not tell him that you believed there were forty thousand Ku-Klux in Tennessee?

Answer. I did not, most emphatically; I told him no such thing, because I did not know how many there were.

Question. Did you not tell him that it was reported and that you believed there were forty thousand of them in Tennessee?

Answer. I told him it was reported so.

Question. And did you not tell him that you believed so?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Did you not believe it?

Answer. I did not, for I had no more idea than you had how many there were there. Question. Did you tell him that it was reported that there were forty thousand in Tennessee, and you believed it, and that they were stronger in other Southern States? Answer. I did not. I told him it was reported-I may probably have said that to him-that there were forty thousand in Tennessee. It was reported so, and your papers stated it.

Question. And you thought it was false?

Answer. No; I did not say I thought so.

Question. Did you think so?

Answer. I did not know; I did not form any opinion about it, because I had no way of forming an opinion; I had no accurate knowledge about the fact.

Question. Before you wrote this letter of yours did you ascertain that fact?

Answer. No, sir, I did not.

Question. Did you change your belief?

Answer. No, sir; I did not; that communication did not change me at all.

Question. Between the time you talked to Mr. Woodward and the time you wrote this letter you did not change your belief?

Answer. No, sir; so far as numbers, position, conduct, and condition of the country was concerned, I made no change, because it was only a few days, and I had no opportunity to do so. I have a copy of a letter here, one of hundreds that I wrote. When I started away, my secretary, who was then the secretary of my company, brought it to me, with his affidavit that it was a true copy. I wrote a great many letters; my right shoulder was shot all to pieces and I write very badly, and he does all the copying. I have that letter with me; it was written in 1868, and the committee can have the use of it if they wish.

By the CHAIRMAN :

Question. Do you desire to have it incorporated into your testimony?

Answer. I certainly do, as showing my feelings at that time. The affidavit and letter are as follows:

"STATE OF TENNESSEE, City of Memphis :

"Before me, J. P. Boughner, a notary public for Shelby County, this day personally appeared Walter A. Goodman, to me well known, who being first duly sworn deposeth and says: On the 28th of August, 1868, General N. B. Forrest wrote a letter to J. T. Brown in reply to a letter received from him. At General Forrest's request I made a copy of his letter and now file that copy as a part of this affidavit. To identify the copy I have marked it "Exhibit A" and have written my name upon it. The copy hereto attached is a literal copy of the original letter, which was mailed on the day of its date. During the greater part of the year 1868 and a part of 1869, I occupied the same office with General Forrest and was on intimate terms with him. During that time I saw many letters received and written by him, and heard many conversations held by him with different persons, in regard to matters of public and political interest, and on all occasions he uniformly opposed and discountenanced all acts of violence or disorder, and counseled moderation, quiet and obedience to the laws.

"W. A. GOODMAN.

"Sworn and subscribed to before me this 17th day of June, 1871. [SEAL.]

"J. P. BOUGHNER,

66

Notary Public.”