Mr. WILLIAMS. I want to say that while our mills have been lying idle in the United States during the past year the Welsh mills have been running to their full capacity. The CHAIRMAN. Please go back to the year before that in making your comparison. Mr. WILLIAMS. I will say that for the past four years the Welsh mills have been running to their full capacity. The CHAIRMAN. Then our mills have had no effect upon them at all; the loss of the trade of the United States has had no effect upon them? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; not any effect at all. The CHAIRMAN. What proportion of the world's consumption of tin plate is consumed in the United States? Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not answer that question. The CHAIRMAN. About three-quarters? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. Mr. LONGWORTH. Did I understand you to say that you can rent a 6-room house in Wales for $4.80 per month? Mr. WILLIAMS. That is what this letter states. Mr. LONGWORTH. Are those houses owned by the mills? Mr. WILLIAMS. Not generally, I believe; I think they are owned by private individuals. Mr. LONGWORTH. What do you suppose a house like that could be built for? Mr. WILLIAMS. I suppose a house of that kind could be built there very much cheaper than in this country. I think in Wales it could be built for $1,500. Mr. LONGWORTH. I am trying to get at what return the owner of that house would get on his money. According to your figures he would get $52 a year rent, and the house would cost, say, $1,500. What would the land upon which that house stands cost? Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not believe that they buy the land outright there, but get it upon leases for ninety-nine years, or something like that. Mr. LONGWORTH. Would that house be in the city? Mr. WILLIAMS. Practically so. Of course I do not know very much about it, and I would not be able to give any definite information along that line. Mr. LONGWORTH. Roughly speaking, you say that the house would cost about $1,500, and the land would probably be worth as much as the house, would it not? Mr. WILLIAMs. I think it would; yes, sir. Mr. LONGWORTH. That is $3,000. He would have a return of $52 a year on a $3,000 investment. What percentage would that be after allowing for taxes and repairs? Mr. WILLIAMS. Not very much. Mr. LONGWORTH. If you take probably half of that gross rental for taxes and repairs, that would leave you $25 a year, or about that. That would make a return of less than 1 per cent. The CHAIRMAN. What do you suggest as the rate of duty on tin plate; how much would you reduce it? Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say in regard to that, that I am not in position to say, but I should say that the rate of duty should be the differential in the cost of production in making tin plate in the foreign countries compared with the cost in the United States. The CHAIRMAN. You have not worked that out? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. I am not in a position to work it out on account of the fact that I am not in possession of the information. The CHAIRMAN. So you do not know whether it ought to be reduced or not? Mr. WILLIAMS. I merely say that I believe that the duty should be the differential in the cost in making plate abroad compared with the plate in the United States. The CHAIRMAN. You do not know whether the duty represents the differential between the cost here and abroad, or not? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. There are manufacturers who will appear before you who will give you that information. Mr. LONGWORTH. Mr. Williams, will you be so kind as to write to that member of Parliament and ask him to let us know what class of Englishmen are willing to take four-fifths of 1 per cent as their return upon their investments in real estate and buildings? I should like very much to know that. That is the net return on this class of buildings that you referred to. Mr. RANDELL. And also how much money they have to let out at that rate. Mr. WILLIAMS. Of course I haven't any definite information. The information I gave you is that which comes in this letter. Mr. LONGWORTH. But you offer that as evidence as to the cost of living in the place to which you referred? Mr. CLARK. I want to ask you this question, Mr. Williams: If a tariff is levied ostensibly for the benefit of laboring men, then the laboring men ought to get all of the tariff, ought they not? Mr. WILLIAMS. Not necessarily. Mr. CLARK. Why should anybody else on earth get a particle of it if it is levied for the benefit of the laborer? Mr. WILLIAMS. Everybody would get the benefit of it, Mr. Clark, in the event we got the plate I referred to. Mr. CLARK. I know; but I am asking you a different question. If a certain tariff is levied in the name of labor, why should not labor get all of that tariff? Mr. WILLIAMS. There are other people that are affected, Mr. Clark, in getting some of the profit in tin plate. Mr. CLARK. I know there are, lots of them, but what I am asking you is a plain simple question: If any given tariff is levied in the name of labor-and that is what it is then the labor ought to get all of that tariff, ought it not? Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't understand that that tariff is set for labor alone. If I understand a tariff rate, it is for the purpose of protecting the American industries. Mr. CLARK. I know, but every man who comes in here and testifies testifies that he has got to have a tariff in order to pay wages. I say that if he pays wages out of the tariff that the wage-earner ought to get it. The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Williams, the protective tariff has enabled you to work in a tin-plate mill, and you would not have had employment there if the mill had not been erected. Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. It takes money to erect a mill; it takes capital to own it and to run it, does it not? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. If there is a difference in the amount of earnings upon the capital between this country and abroad, people who are capitalists will not put money in tin-plate mills unless they can make up that difference, will they? Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. So that in order to give any benefit to labor you must first have the capital invested in the tin-plate mills, is that not so? Mr. WILLIAMS. It has been invested to such an extent in our country, Mr. Chairman, that the total number of mills erected are larger and more in number than it requires to make the domestic plate of the country. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; that is correct. You do not expect that the people who own this capital here are so full of philanthropy that they will build mills simply for the profits of the workingmen exclusively, do you? Mr. WILLIAMS. Most assuredly not. The CHAIRMAN. So that capital has got to have enough differential duty to pay the cost of capital here and abroad, has it not? Do you not know that? If not, say so. Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I do not know. Mr. CLARK. If the statement in the chairman's question is correct, then the tariff is levied to put up the rates of interest in this country to the money lender as well as to pay higher wages. That is the inevitable conclusion to be formed from his question. Mr. WILLIAMS. I can not answer that question, Mr. Clark. The CHAIRMAN. The rate of interest in this country is regulated, at least it depends a good deal, upon rates of interest upon farm mortgages in the West, does it not? Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I am not going to answer those questions, because I don't know anything about that subject. Mr. CLARK. Yes; that is getting in to where you do not know. Mr. UNDERWOOD. You stated that you thought that the duty levied on tin plate should be the differential between the cost abroad and the cost here. Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Mr. UNDERWOOD. That is, as you voted the Democratic ticket, I suppose you indorsed the Democratic platform on these questions? Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not indorse the Democratic platform in its entirety. [Laughter.] The CHAIRMAN. Do not ask that same question of Mr. Underwood. [Laughter.] Mr. UNDERWOOD. I am not testifying. The CHAIRMAN. And you do not want to be embarrassed. Mr. UNDERWOOD. What I want to get at, Mr. Williams, is this: If we take the actual cost of production of tin plate in Wales, which is the principal market, and add to that the cost of transporting the product to New York City, which is the cheapest point to bring it into in this country, and then take the cost of manufacturing tin plate in the United States, the actual cost, including all the labor cost that you have given, then, if the cost of the product in the United States is higher than the cost of the product in Wales with the freight added, and deduct one from the other to ascertain the difference of how much the cost product is greater in the United States than the cost product of Wales with the freight added, and fix a tariff at that rate, you say that that is a fair and equitable tariff? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. I said this, that the differential of cost in Wales compared with the differential of cost of making plate in the United States or, in other words, giving us an opportunity to make the export trade in our own country. Mr. UNDERWOOD. In other words, to give you equal competition in the American market. Mr. WILLIAMS. To give us an opportunity of making that plate here. Mr. UNDERWOOD. You do not ask for more than that? Mr. WILLIAMS. I ask that we be given conditions under which we can make the reexported trade-that which is now being made in Wales in the American mills by the American workingmen. Mr. UNDERWOOD. Do you think that the American mills could compete with the mills in Wales on a free-trade basis? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. Mr. UNDERWOOD. What effect would that have on the American production of tin? Mr. WILLIAMS. It would have the effect of putting the American tin-plate manufacturers out of business. Mr. UNDERWOOD. If we fix the differential in duty on the basis that you state, the difference in cost in Wales and the cost of the American production, do you think that that would enable you to control your business and a large portion of the American market? Mr. WILLIAMS. In answering that question I desire to say again that what we desire is that we be given an opportunity of working this plate in our own country; and I have stated that I believe the duty would be the differential, and I can not say anything further. Mr. UNDERWOOD. That is what I wanted. In other words, that is an absolutely prohibitive duty. But you do not stand for that proposition, do you? [No response.] Mr. COCKRAN. The figures you have given here, as to the cost of producing this commodity in America as compared with the cost in Wales, would indicate a very decided inferiority in productive capacity of the American laborer. Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; not necessarily so. Mr. COCKRAN. If it would cost so much more per ton, as you have given here Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. Cockran, I have already stated, in answer to some of the questions that have been asked me relative to the amount of output of the American mills compared with the output of the mills in Wales, that I will endeavor to get that information for you, and when you get that information you will find that the larger number of men employed in the American mills are able to turn out a larger output. Mr. COCKRAN. That is just what I wanted to get at. The American laborer is capable of a larger output than the foreign laborer? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Mr. COCKRAN. So that in making any kind of a comparison or fixing the relative rates of wages the statements are more or less misleading. Mr. WILLIAMS. I got all the data I could on the matter. I stated that I am not in a position to get the cost. I present these figures in evidence at this time, and if you are in a position to get the cost of production in Wales, then these figures will be invaluable to you in comparison. Mr. COCKRAN. You can see that if a man producing steel, or any other commodity, could produce twice as much as another, and if he were to pay twice as much wage, there would be more profit accruing to the man that paid the high wages to labor than the man who paid the low wages? Mr. WILLIAMS. So far as the American workingmen is concerned, they can hold their own with any workingmen in the world. They are as efficient as any in the world. Mr. COCKRAN. They are more efficient, are they not? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Mr. CLARK. Mr. Williams, is there any considerable percentage of men laboring in the American tin mills who are not American citizens neither naturalized or native? Mr. WILLIAMS. Why, I believe the largest number of employees in the American tin mills are American citizens. I would be safe in asserting that 85 per cent, possibly, of all men working in the American tin mills, who came from the other side, are American citizens. I think they come here with a desire to become American citizens. Mr. CLARK. I am talking of your business. Do any of them come here with simply a desire to work a while and then go back? You know that five or six hundred thousand went back recently, and what I was trying to get at was whether any large percentage of that kind of men were employed in the tin mills? Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not believe one-half of 1 per cent of the men who come over from Wales ever go back. They come here to stay here. They make this country their home, and they become citizens of the country as soon as it is possible for them to do so. I consider that the immigration that has come from Wales is about as intelligent as that from any other country. Mr. CLARK. I do, too. Most of the workmen in the tin- plate mills of the United States are Welshmen, are they not? Mr. WILLIAMS. In later years quite a number of Americans are going into the business. When the tin-plate industry first started the workmen were largely composed of men from Wales, but in recent years I do not suppose that one-half of the people employed in the American mills are people of Welsh nationality. Mr. LONGWORTH. You say that you voted for Bryan this year. Are you going to do it again? [Great laughter.] Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, no; I think Mr. GRIGGS. I would like to come back to this question of efficiency. You say that the American workingman can do anything any workingman in the world can do. Can he compete with any workman in the world? Mr. WILLIAMS. I think so. Mr. GRIGGS. Why is it necessary for you to have five extra men per ton over here on your tonnage work? |