Mr. WILLIAMS. There is an entirely different method of working, Mr. Griggs, and I have already answered that question in this way, that we turn out a larger output in the American mills, and these figures will be submitted in a brief to the committee.

Mr. GRIGGS. You are going to show that in the brief?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We will endeavor to show that as far as we can. Mr. GRIGGS. As I understand your position in this matter, you want the drawback done away with?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; the drawback abrogated, and protection for tin-plate industries.

Mr. GRIGGS. What is done with the tin that is imported into this country and then exported?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I have already stated it is used for reexportation in connection with oil, fish, fruit, and other products.

Mr. GRIGGS. It is manufactured over here, is it not, after it has come in here?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; when it comes into this country it is really a finished product.

Mr. GRIGGS. It comes in as sheet tin?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As tin plate. All they do after it comes in here is to make it into a receptacle to take the American product out.

Mr. GRIGGS. Well, does not that give employment to American labor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; most assuredly. But what I advocate would not take away the employment of American labor if that was done. Mr. GRIGGS. Then you simply want to get more employment for more American laborers, is that it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is what I want; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIGGS. If I understood your statement correctly, there are about 486,000,000 pounds exported and about 551,000,000 pounds imported. That leaves a very small difference so far as the straight tin is concerned. Does that leave you any control of the American market?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Not absolutely. It is my opinion that the difference in the importations and exportations in that case would simply mean that that amount of tin, if it stayed here, would be practically special orders or a special grade.

Mr. GRIGGS. Supppose the drawback was done away with, that difference between 486,000,000, in round numbers, and 551,000,000 pounds would come in any way, so that the drawback would not affect that part of it.

Mr. WILLIAMS. It is so small.

Mr. GRIGGS. It does not affect that trade at all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. It is very, very small.

Mr. GRIGGS. How does that drawback affect you other than requiring these people who make cans to buy their tin in this country. Is

that all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is part of it.

Mr. GRIGGS. It is imported to-day and exported to-morrow?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIGGS. Do you propose to export tin?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We would export it if we were in a position to do

so, most assuredly.

Mr. GRIGGS. Could you export tin at the present prices?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. GRIGGS. Could you export tin at the cost that it is manufactured in this country now?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I have endeavored to point out

Mr. GRIGGS. If the drawback were done away with, how would you be able to export it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. Griggs, I have endeavored to point out in my statement already made that in order to get a share of this reexporting business, that the association of which I am an official, took off 25 per cent of their wages in order to try to get this business.

Mr. GRIGGS. Do you mean that they accepted wages at 25 per cent less in order to sell to the foreigners rather than the home folks? Mr. WILLIAMS. Why, no.

Mr. GRIGGS. What do you mean by that 25 per cent less, then?

Mr. WILLIAMS. In order to enable the manufacturer to get this reexport trade, not the foreigner.

Mr. GRIGGS. Isn't that what export means, to go out of the country? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIGGS. Do you mean that you are willing to accept 25 per cent less wages on that part of the product?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; in order to compete with the foreign manufacturers.

Mr. GRIGGS. You are willing to accept 25 per cent less in order to be able to sell to a foreigner?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I do not want to get confused in the questions.

Mr. DALZELL. I understand his meaning to be that the acceptance of 25 per cent less wages was for the benefit of the American manufacturer, and in no way a benefit to the foreign consumer.

Mr. GRIGGS. That is as I understood it, and that is what I am trying to get at. Did Mr. Dalzell state that correctly?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIGGS. Then you are willing to work for 25 per cent less for the foreigner than for the American?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. DALZELL. It is all American in both cases.

Mr. GRIGGS. But the foreigner gets the benefit of the 25 per cent. Mr. WILLIAMS. No; the American manufacturer gets the benefit of the 25 per cent.

Mr. GRIGGS. The American manufacturer in order to be able to sell goods to a foreigner gets his labor for 25 per cent less for that particular work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the point: When this plate is imported into this country and then sent out again, it is what we call reexported plate. What we desire on the part of the American mills and the American workingmen is this, to make the plate that is now used for reexport purposes. Under the present conditions, in order that we can get even a small part of that trade, it was absolutely necessary that the association of which I am an official should enter into an agreement with the American tin-plate manufacturers, agreeing to a reduction of 25 per cent from the regular schedule of the association in order to stand our part of the share between the cost of the American tin and the Welsh tin.

Mr. GRIGGS. That is exactly what I wanted to get, and that is all.

JOHN WILLIAMS, SECRETARY-TREASURER AMALGAMATED ASSOCIATION OF IRON, STEEL, AND TIN WORKERS OF NORTH AMERICA, FILES STATEMENT RELATIVE TO WALES TIN-PLATE WAGES.

Hon. SERENO E. PAYNE,

PITTSBURG, PA., December 1, 1908.

Chairman the Ways and Means Committee,

Washington, D. C.

DEAR SIR: I inclosed under separate cover brief from officials of the Amalgamated Association of Iron, Steel, and Tin Workers, but omitted the inclosure contained herein, which is a scale of prices paid at the present time in the tin-plate mills in Wales. At hearing on November 27 I agreed to turn over same for information of committee. Yours, truly,

JOHN WILLIAMS,
Secretary-Treasurer.

The Welsh Plate and Sheet Manufacturers' Association list of wages to remain in force

until the 30th of June, 1906.

A box of plates means a basis of 14 by 10 inches, 225 sheets, weighing 110 pour ds in mills. Area, 31,500 inches. Allowance for waste to be 2 per cent.

Gains to be paid on all plates above 140 pounds per box in mills and tin house. Mill furnaces to be relighted by employers after stoppages for repairs or holidays. Tin-plate sizes are up to and including 54 by 28 inches.

For shearing small squares:

9 inches and under 10 inches... 8 inches and under 9 inches.

7 inches and under 8 inches.

Under 7 inches.......

10 per cent extra.

15 per cent extra.

20 per cent extra. 25 per cent extra.

A bundler to be provided for each shearer in tin-plate mills. Openers, 6s. 3d. per 100 boxes, with 9d. extra if outside sheets are thrown out. Payment to be made on area of 31,500 inches on all tin-plate sizes. In the event of plates being drawn light, due to faulty workmanship, workmen may be penalized by the addition of sheets to make up weight.

That 2 per cent margin be allowed. Gains to be made up weekly. Anything over half a box to be paid for as a box.

The following to be the minimum weights of bars supplied to the mills:

Workmen to follow machinery consistent with efficiency of the same, and careful regulation of orders being determined for individual works, and that the men be instructed to utilize the full period of time of each turn and the machinery in use. In case of dispute at any works, a committee of three masters and three men shall visit such works and report to the conciliation board for settlement.

That in the event of breakdown from any cause in the mill, the men employed shall not be expected to remain more than a reasonable time. Changing rolls.-When broken or damaged during work:

Up to and including 30 inches, 8s. per pair or 48. per roll.

Up to and including 32 inches, 8s. 6d. per pair or 4s. 3d. per roll.

Up to and including 34 inches, 98. per pair or 4s. 6d. per roll.

If changed on Saturdays, which means after completion of week's work:

Up to and including 30 inches, 9s. per pair or 4s. 6d. per roll.

Up to and including 32 inches, 9s. 6d. per pair or 4s. 9d. per roll.

Up to and including 34 inches, 10s. per pair or 5s. per roll.

Changing standards.-Rollers, doublers, and furnace men, 6d. per hour; behinders, 44d. per hour.

Changing leading boxes.-Where there is no intermediate spindle between leading spindle and rolls, 3s.

Changing screw pin, ls.; changing screw pin and box, 2s. 6d.

Changing carriages or riders, 18.; top brass, 1s.; bottom brass, 2s. each.

Changing coupling boxes and spindles, ls.

The above rates for changing rolls, castings, etc., to apply at works of 4 mills and under and where millmen are employed to do the work, and to come into operation on January 1, 1903.

SHEET MILLS

The following rates to be paid for sheets, black plate, and tin plates in sizes exceeding 54 by 28, and wider than 28 inches.

Table No. 1.-Over 54 by 28 up to and including 60 by 30.

Gauge.
Per ton.

Roller.

Doubler.

Heater.

Behinder.

Shearer.

Gauge.
Per ton.

Roller..

Doubler.

Heater.

Behinder.

Shearer..

Table No. 2.—Over 60 by 30 up to and including 96 by 30.

Tuble No. 3.--From 40 by 31 and wider, up to 36 inches wide.

The following sizes, being over 1512 sup. inches, are to be paid the rates of Table No. 1 (whether cut down to smaller size or not) and irrespective of what mills they are worked in:

Sheets or plates between 29 B. G. and 118 lb. basis are to be paid at 29 B. G. rate, otherwise all other intermediate gauges are to be paid at the lighter gauge rates. 18. 6d. per ton extra to be paid for 31 G.

2s. 9d. per ton extra to be paid for 32 G.

48. per ton extra to be paid for 33 G.

12 per cent extra to be paid openers on sheets of 60 by 30 and upward.

Helpers to be provided in 42-inch rolls at 5s. per day of eight hours, and also in 36-inch mills on plates above 70 by 30 inches.

Helpers to be provided in 36-inch mills when working orders above 60 by 30.
Defectives 50 per cent less on plates as rolled.

Allowance for waste in mills 2 per cent.

Extras over 8 feet lengths 10 per cent on all gauges.

Extras over 9 feet lengths 15 per cent on all gauges.

Sizes over 26 inches up to 28 inches wide, up to and including 46 inches long, 28-29 W G be paid 15 per cent above tin plate scale.

These exceptions are made owing to the difficulty of working specifications within above-limit.

The above rates include roller, doubler, furnaceman, behinder, and shearer.

Rates for changing rolls are left to individual works, as the conditions vary so much. That in the event of a breakdown from any cause in the mill the men employed shall not be expected to remain more than a reasonable time.

Pickling.-Black and white:

Five shillings nine pence per 100 boxes for 4 mills; 5s. 6d. per 100 boxes for 5 to 8 mills; 5s. 3d. per 100 boxes for 9 to 12 mills.

Or employer's option, day work:

Seven shillings six pence head pickler; 6s. 6d. second pickler; 5s. 10d. third pickler.

In case of any change from piecework to day work, or vice versa, twenty-eight days' notice to be given.

Annealing. Annealing (black and white):

Coal, 11s. 6d. per 100 boxes; gas, 10s. 6d. per 100 boxes.

Once annealing, 78. 8d. per 100 boxes; gas, 78. per 100 boxes.

Payment to be on mill make, and half a week's work to be kept in hand.

Wheeling coal and ashes to be done by employers.

Other work to be carried out as hitherto.

Opening small pots, viz, those used for plates, up to and including 30 by 21, 9d. per pot.

Opening small pots, larger sizes, 1s. per pot.

A payment of 58. per furnace to be paid for relighting after repairs.

The taking in and taking out of annealing pots to be done as hitherto, except in cases of extraordinary labor.

Annealer's work to begin and end as in the past, except in special cases where the annealing furnaces are inconveniently placed, in which extra labor shall be arranged for by the conciliation board.

In cases where annealing is done by day work the rate to be equal to the above.