When I became Secretary of the Interior, every application for reservoir sites in the San Luis Valley was held up. Within four months of the time I became Secretary of the Interior, if I remember the exact number of days, every one of those applications for reservoir sites had been acted upon and acted upon favorably by me as Secretary of the Interior. So that every Colorado interest in the San Luis Valley that desired to conserve a reservoir, with water for the use of the farmers of Colorado, had the right to go ahead and so act. When I left the department two years later, but very few of those gentlemen had taken advantage of the right that had been given them, and not one single acre under my administration in the San Luis Valley, so far as the people of Colorado who desired the water were concerned, was prevented from having water by any act of mine. (Applause.)

Regarding the other proposition, I spoke from memory of the application made to me personally by the Board of Trade of Pueblo regarding the tunneling of the water on to the eastern side of the slope. If, by reason of the infirmities of age, I have forgotten the name of the river which they wished to divert, I beg Colorado's pardon. The proposition was that they were seeking to divert the water from one valley to the watershed of another valley, and in either case they were affecting the people outside of Colorado below the point of diversion from the valley from which they wished to divert the water. (Applause.)

CONGRESSMAN KEATING-Mr. Chairman !

CHAIRMAN FISHER-Just a moment, please! In view of the fact that I anticipate you intend to correct Secretary Garfield's statement, I think it may be well at this time to enable you to correct the statements of two Secretaries of the Interior, and I am going to make mine. (Laughter and applause.)

When I became Secretary of the Interior I found both of these propositions pending, either in continuation or in renewed form, before me as Secretary of the Interior. There are two propositions, one with reference to the Grande River and the other with reference to the Rio Grande River. On the Grande River is a very important government reclamation project, upon which, under action of Congress, a large part of public moneys had been expended and was in process of expenditure. It was one of the pleasures of my administration to open that project and to enable the people of the Grande Valley of Colorado, one of the richest valleys the sun shines upon, to acquire the benefits of their own water upon their own watershed. There were applications pending for the diversion of a portion of that water to a neighboring valley, and those applications

were held up to await the report of the engineers as to how it would affect the people in the Grande Valley under the reclamation project upon which the public moneys were in process of expenditure.

As for the Rio Grande, I found a very animated controversy which ran back to Secretary Garfield's time. I found that it was claimed by the state of Colorado that they had the legal power to utilize all of the water they desired and for which they could find beneficial use upon the Rio Grande River within the state of Colorado, and that without regard to the watershed below the state line. Below the state line, at the socalled Engle dam, there was in process of construction the largest earth dam in the world, a dam constructed under special action of Congress, and in that respect unique among the reclamation projects. We got into an unfortunate controversy with the neighboring government of Mexico, but we worked it out through an international agreement between the two countries. That international agreement provided that we should furnish from the Rio Grande River to the people of Mexico a certain measured quantity of water. In order to get that quantity of water it was necessary to build works in this country. These works were provided by the Engle dam. It was found that by building works there, we could irrigate one of the richest territories in the world and that we could bring an immense area of land in Texas under profitable cultivation. Congress not only authorized the work, but appropriated one million dollars, as I remember the amount-I may be wrong as to that, but that is immaterial-for the purpose of constructing that dam, the reason being that it was felt that public moneys derived from the sale of public lands, which is the means from which reclamation works are built ordinarily, should not be utilized in Texas, which never had any public lands. So Congress, out of the public treasury, out of your pockets and out of mine, appropriated this money to build that dam. The reclamation engineers reported that the diversion proposed in Colorado would in their judgment endanger the success of the project and would prevent us from carrying this thing out to success, that the cost of the international obligation to Mexico would thereby be very largely increased, and we would have to spend millions of dollars which we would not otherwise have expended.

Under that state of facts, Colorado's claim was resisted by She insisted she had the legal right. She stood upon her legal rights. I wrote to the Governor of the state, and I had the President of the United States write to the Governor of the state and say to him that if, as was claimed in Colorado, this water could be diverted successfully, then there was no

quarrel between the state and the nation; that if that was not true, then we might have to take up the legal questions and that in the interests of all concerned, in that principle of fair play and common sense that ought to characterize the relations of these great sovereignties, we should first appoint a commission of engineers representing all the different interests, to report to us what, in their judgment, would be the effect of the proposed diversions in the state of Colorado; that they should report, and that that report should not be binding in any legal sense whatever on the state of Colorado or upon the Federal Government, but simply should be advisory, so that if the commission reported there was plenty of water for both, we might both agree to shake hands and remain good friends, and to leave our fights to go on afterwards if it was necessary. The Governor of Colorado declined the proposition, although it was made and reiterated, as I have said, from as high authority as the President of the United States. The Governor of Colorado said they were prepared to stand on their legal rights.

Very well! There was a case brought which the lower court of Colorado decided in favor of the state, under the very statute to which the Senator from Colorado referred this morning, and that case went on appeal to the United States Circuit Court of Appeals, which court held that the statute, to which the Senator referred this morning, had been repealed by the Act of 1896 by the Congress of the United States, and that the law upon which his whole claim rested was no longer the law of this country. (Applause.) So that the legal question, as it now stands, remains decided against the state of Colorado, subject to appeal to the Supreme Court of the United States; but until that body speaks, the law is as I have stated it.

If I were in office, which I am not-but I will assume the present administration will be delighted to have this suggestion, and I understand the suggestion has been made-as I understand it, notwithstanding the fact that Shylock has appealed for his pound of flesh and has asked for the letter of the bond, notwithstanding the fact that he would make the expenditure of Federal moneys largely worthless and increase the cost to the general taxpayers of this country, and would insist upon what he then claimed to be his technical legal rights, notwithstanding the fact that he has been beaten in that claim, the Federal Government, as I understand it, stands now where it always has stood, in favor of ascertaining whether or not there is any real quarrel between this country of ours, the nation as a whole, and the state of Colorado.

I did not think it was fair to allow the Congressman from Colorado to answer Secretary Garfield without also answering me. (Applause.)

CONGRESSMAN KEATING-Mr. Chairman!

(Cries of "Question! Question!")

CHAIRMAN FISHER-The gentleman is entitled to be heard. The Chair recognizes Congressman Keating, of Colorado.

CONGRESSMAN KEATING-First of all I want to say there is no serious difference, no serious question of fact. (Laughter.) That is all right; just laugh; it is all right. As a matter of fact, there is no serious difference of fact.

Secretary Fisher frankly admits the truth of the statement which I made and which I never questioned that any one would question; and that is that certain demands by the people of Colorado, that they be permitted to irrigate lands in the San Luis Valley, were denied on account of the Engle dam. There is no question about that. It makes no difference whether Secretary Garfield refused the demand or Secretary Fisher refused it. The demand was refused.

You know, I am very sorry that my good friend Fisher, for whom I have the utmost regard, should have used that unfortunate expression that "Shylock demanded his pound of flesh." Who is this Shylock who demands his pound of flesh in the San Luis Valley proposition? Does the ex-Secretary here contend that the giant monopolies are attempting to get control of the waters of the Rio Grande River? Is it not a fact that the people have organized irrigation districts, that private capital has organized irrigation companies for the purpose of taking the water out of the river, as we have done during all the life of our state, and placing that water on our lands? Is not that what we were seeking to do? Did we not have a right to stand on our legal rights? Has not every American citizen a right to appeal to the protection of the law and the Constitution? When we appeal to the Constitution and the law, are the officers of this Government to turn on the farmers of my district and call them Shylocks demanding their pound of flesh?

(Cries of "Question! Vote! Question! Vote!")

CONGRESSMAN KEATING-I want to make that point perfectly clear.

(Continued cries of "Vote! Vote! Vote!")

CONGRESSMAN KEATING-I have attended so many democratic conventions that this sort of thing does not frighten me. (Continued cries of "Vote! Vote! Vote!")

CHAIRMAN FISHER-Gentlemen, we must have order. We are going to hear everybody entitled to speak here if we have to stay all night. You may as well hear the gentleman until he has finished his remarks.

CONGRESSMAN KEATING-I appreciate that perhaps I am trespassing upon your time.

(Cries of "You are! You are!")

CONGRESSMAN KEATING-Will the one hundred and fiftynine delegates from the District of Columbia kindly permit me to conclude my remarks? (Applause.)

My friends, as a matter of fact, I believe if we could once approach each other without the suspicion which seems to drive us asunder, that as a matter of fact all the people of the United States could get together on this question of conservation. I have believed it all along. Back in my own state I was president of the State Land Board, and white acting in that capacity some of those who were endeavoring to get the Public Domain went so far as to say that I "out-Pinchoted Pinchot," and for some reason I felt that possibly that was a compliment. We are not very far apart. On this question of water power I believe the good people of my state are just as determined that the public utility corporations, which are permitted to use that power, shall be always held within the control of the Government as are the people of any other section of this country. We have enacted one of the best public utility laws in any state in this Union, and that law was held up under our initiative and referendum by a power company. We are not the friends of the power companies, but the question that is bothering us, the question that is troubling us, is this proposition of having all the receipts from these natural resources go to the National Government.

I have not the time to go into that, nor have I the disposition. As I said before, I regret that the Secretary, by a slip of the tongue, referred to these farmers of the San Luis Valley, who are trying to irrigate their lands, as Shylocks who were insisting upon their pound of flesh. As a matter of fact, they are farmers who are endeavoring to get water for their lands in order that they may raise crops. (Applause.)

(Cries of "Vote! Vote! Vote!")

CHAIRMAN FISHER-I only desire to say that the gentlemen who came to see me and to whom I referred as Shylocks were not farmers seeking to get water! (Loud applause.)

SENATOR SHAFROTH, of Colorado-Mr. Chairman, I want to simply say this, because of the reference of the Chairman to me, because I was Governor of the state of Colorado at that time.

CHAIRMAN FISHER-That is right; he was.

SENATOR SHAFROTH-I want to state to you exactly what the situation was and what it is.

(Cries of "Vote! Vote! Vote!")

SENATOR SHAFROTH-This proposition, which we have been endeavoring to get

A DELEGATE-Point of order, Mr. Chairman. It occurs to