the police raid them, nearly all have switchblades. In addition, they now have these great heavy buckled belts and switch them back and forth. They have learned how to do that pretty well.

Mr. DOLLINGER. They also use guns that have been made unworkable. They take the old barrel off and put on new barrels, do they not?

Mr. DELANEY. They do everything. I have seen guns like a fountain pen or a syringe.

Mr. DOLLINGER. They are home-made guns.

Mr. DELANEY. They are almost all home-made guns. You exert pressure and a spring device lets go and fires a bullet. The kids get into these wars and pull a gun and the first thing a bullet is exploded and hits one of the opponents.

Mr. DOLLINGER. They show the things on TV so that the kids can watch it.

Mr. DELANEY. I think the TV has something to do with it because it shows them how to operate.

Mr. MACK. I hesitate to detain you, Mr. Delaney.

I wanted to ask, is this a similar bill to the one you have in the State of New York?

Mr. DELANEY. Well, I have not compared them in detail.

Mr. MACK. My question is this: Are you operating in New York on the concealed-weapon arrangement or on transportation?

Mr. DELANEY. Not on transportation but on sale and also manufacturing. The sale is the principal thing.

Mr. MACK. You do not approach the problem by concealment.

Mr. DELANEY. I am not sure whether it is included. I have not looked at the bill for some time. It has been some 4 years since it was passed in New York.

Mr. MACK. You did not point out the differences between your bill and Mr. Yates' bill.

Mr. DELANEY. I have not analyzed any one else's bill.

Mr. MACK. We will leave that to Mr. Yates.

Thank you.

Our next witness is my very good friend and colleague from the State of Illinois, who has been long interested in the problem of juvenile delinquency in Chicago as well as throughout the entire country. At this time we would like to hear from Congressman Sidney Yates.

STATEMENT OF HON. SIDNEY R. YATES, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS

Mr. YATES. Thank you very much for your gracious remarks.

I deeply appreciate the opportunity to make a statement on behalf of H. R. 7258, which I introduced in the first session of the present Congress.

My bill would prohibit the introduction into interstate commerce of switchblade knives.

I want, too, to pay my respects to your preceding witness, Congressman Delaney from New York, who told such a graphic story today about the need for this legislation. Everything he said is valid.

These bills are important. They will prohibit the manufacture of switchblade knives for introduction into interstate commerce and the subsequent transportation and distribution of such weapons.

Whoever knowingly violates the provisions of the law will be subject to a maximum penalty of $2,000 or 2 years in prison, or both. The same punishment would be meted out to any persons manufacturing, or possessing any switchblades knife within any Territory or possession of the United States, within Indian country, or within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States as defined in the United States Code.

When I introduced this bill during the last session of Congress, I reminded the House of the vicious trend that juvenile crime was taking. This trend, unfortunately, has continued unabated. I am more than ever convinced that H. R. 7258 deserves more urgent consideration at this time than when it was first introduced.

Mr. Chairman frequently, as Congressman Delaney pointed outmuch too frequently newspapers and magazines are filled with descriptions of gang fights, holdups and stabbings, committed by teenagers, and running through almost all such stories is the switchblade knife. The gruesome similarity in detail related by these stories is relieved only by the horror that each one reflects individually-the terror of the victim, the revulsion of the newspaper reader, and the terrifying realization that the perpetrators of these crimes are still in their teens. The switchblade knife has become the symbol, as well as the weapon of the teen-age gang.

Some of you may not be as familiar with the switchblade knives and I brought some along which I requested from the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia. When I delivered my speech on the floor of the House last year I had a switchblade knife that was fully 9 inches long. I asked the Metropolitan Police Department for some knives that I could show to the committee this year, and they came up and gave me six of them, which I have on the table.

One of the most common is the Italian stiletto form. You can see how this thing works. It is a very ugly knife, as you can see. Mr. AVERY. I am convinced about these.

Mr. YATES. This is fundamentally a problem of the big towns and cities. I had to sign a receipt to obtain these knives because it is illegal to possess knives of this type in the District of Columbia. If I were not a Member of Congress I would have to be deputized as a member of the police force in order to get them.

How did the people in the District get these knives? The District does not want them. They are outlawed by the code of the District of Columbia. But they are shipped in via the mail or by some other carrier. That is why, of course, the bill has been introduced to prevent their being shipped in interstate commerce and to prevent their being manufactured for shipment in interstate commerce.

Obviously, as you look at these knives you see that this is not the type of knife we used as boys or that the Boy Scouts use.

This is a weapon used almost exclusively for strongarm purposes. The addition of the spring mechanism changes the character of the knife from any Dr. Jekyll pocket blade quality to the Mr. Hyde instrument of violence.

Today there is no legal barrier whatever to ordering a knife of this type through the mail or by any common carrier operating in interstate commerce. As a matter of fact, we find them being advertised by mail-order houses, in sports magazines, and in outdoor magazines. Mr. DOLLINGER. Would you call this a switchblade knife? Mr. YATES. No; it has no automatic mechanism.

Mr. AVERY. Mr. Chairman, while the gentleman is interrupted, there is a question which has come up from the statements you made just now.

Would your bill, and very frankly I have not read it, preclude the advertising as well as the shipment of the switchblades?

Mr. YATES. No, it does not preclude advertising. It precludes the shipment and manufacture for shipment in interstate commerce of switchblade knives.

Mr. AVERY. When you conclude your statement, would you comment on what your views might be on including the advertising?

Mr. YATES. Well, I can state now that if it is illegal to ship these knives in interstate commerce I would think that there would be no advertising for that purpose and I would think that there would be no necessity for the prohibition.

Mr. AVERY. Yes, because conceivably they could advertise them in a comic book in New York City and manufacture them in New York and could distribute them in interstate commerce.

Mr. YATES. If it is not in interstate commerce there is nothing we can do about it.

Mr. AVERY. Except that you could preclude the advertising that might flow in interstate commerce, could you not?

Mr. YATES. I think that is likely except that I think that this would tend to give leads as to those who were violating this law if passed. I would not think that any person would want to subject himself to possible criminal violation and harassment under those circumstances. Mr. AVERY. Thank you.

Mr. YATES. You are welcome.

Now, I have seen some of these advertisements. I have not brought them along. The advertisements for switchblade knives in popular magazines state that its purpose is for self-defense or for hunting or fishing emergencies. For what reason would a youngster, or even an adult for that matter, have to carry weapons for self-defense? Our country is not a bloody battlefield. In spite of the stories we read every day we are still a law-abiding citizenry. We do not condone gang warfare. We have not reached the point where we want our youth to be armed for their own defense or resort to weapons of this type or to cunning or brute strength for protection rather than relying upon the police.

The police are and must continue to be our guardians. Invitations to our children such as appear in such advertisements, to meet violence with violence, are very harmful.

I think your suggestion is good, but I think this is something that the newspapers and advertisers have to go into. They increase tremendously the work of the police departments.

What kind of hunting or fishing emergencies could possibly require an instrument of that type?

As Congressman Delaney pointed out, the usual hunting or fishing knife is carried in a sheath on a belt. As a matter of fact, I checked this matter with the Izaak Walton League of America. I wrote a letter to them last year and received a reply on May 27, 1957. I would like to read it to you.

DEAR MR. YATES: We have your recent letter with respect to H. R. 7258, the legislation which you have introduced to ban the shipping of switchblade knives in interstate commerce. You asked what the league's position on this bill would be, and if its enactment would place a burden on sportsmen's clubs. The Izaak Walton League has no policy on this matter to my knowledge. Many of our State divisions and local chapters have firmly resisted State or municipal legislation which would restrict the ownership and use of sporting arms in efforts to control the ownership of weapons by thugs. Generally, I believe our membership does not believe that such legislation would achieve its objective but would hinder and thwart the law-abiding citizen in his use of arms for sporting purposes. Whether the membership would carry that same thinking over to legislation on other items which could be used as weapons, I do not know, and cannot until it comes before our national convention. Consequently the following comments are personal strictly.

I have never seen a sportsman in Western States use a switchblade knife for either hunting or fishing.

This is the conservation director of the Izaak Walton League.

Most sportsmen prefer the sheath-type knife as they are much easier to keep clean. Since getting your letter I've talked with a good many others out here, and they think the same. I am not as familiar with sportsmen habits in the East, so have talked with many of them recently. I understand that there are quite a few switchblade knives used in the East, many or perhaps most of them purchased mostly as souvenirs while in the armed services in Europe.

I desire to introduce this letter in the record, Mr. Chairman, rather than reading the whole thing at this time.

Mr. MACK. The letter will be received.

(The letter referred to follows:)

Hon. SIDNEY R. YATES,

THE IZAAK WALTON LEAGUE OF AMERICA, INC.,

House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.

Chicago, Ill., May 27, 1957.

DEAR MR. YATES: We have your recent letter with respect to H. R. 7258, the legislation which you have introduced to ban the shipping of switchblade knives in interstate commerce. You asked what the league's position on this bill would be, and if its enactment would place a burden on sportsmen's clubs.

The Izaak Walton League has no policy on this matter to my knowledge. Many of our State divisions and local chapters have firmly resisted State or municipal legislation which would restrict the ownership and use of sporting arms in efforts to control the ownership of weapons by thugs. Generally, I believe our membership does not believe that such legislation would achieve its objective but would hinder and thwart the law-abiding citizen in his use of arms for sporting purposes. Whether the membership would carry that same thinking over to legislation on other items which could be used as weapons, I do not know, and cannot until it comes before our national convention. Consequently the following comments are personal, strictly.

I have never seen a sportsman in Western States use a switchblade knife for either hunting or fishing.

Most sportsmen prefer the sheath-type knife as they are much easier to keep clean. Since getting your letter I've talked with a good many others out here, and they think the same. I am not as familiar with sportsmen habits in the East, so have talked wtih many of them recently. I understand that there are quite a few switchblade knives used in the East, many or perhaps most of them purchased mostly as souvenirs while in the armed services in Europe.

Should sportsmen clubs be exempt under such legislation as proposed, I would think it entirely unworkable. I understand some States already have com

parable intrastate legislation; I'd be curious to know how it's working out in such States.

Appreciate your invitation to comment on your legislation and am sorry I cannot give a more helpful reply.

Sincerely,

J. W. PENFOLD, Conservation Director.

Mr. YATES. To obtain more basic information on the relationship of switchblade knives to juvenile delinquency, I caused a questionnaire to be sent to the police departments of the cities of Chicago, Los Angeles, Detroit, Cincinnati, Boston, New York, and Philadelphia. The questions I asked were:

1. How many juvenile delinquents had switchblade knives in their possession when arrested?

2. Would this legislation in your opinion assist in the reduction of juvenile delinquency? If so, in what way?

3. Has your city considered, or does it now ban the sale of such knives?

4. Have any studies on the subject been done by your department or city?

5. Do you feel that there is any legitimate need for such a knife? Unfortunately, we discovered when we received the replies from the police departments that they do not have a statistical survey on some of the questions that I asked. However, answers to my questionnaire brought forth certain interesting replies and points of view. For example, in Boston, Police Commissioner Thomas F. Sullivan pointed out, and I quote from his reply:

It would seem obvious to anyone who has had the opportunity to observe the mechanism of these knives that they are specifically devised as a vicious, insidious weapon of assault and can be devoted to no legitimate use in the everyday life of law-abiding citizens.

Commissioner Edward S. Piggins, of the Detroit Police Department, said this:

Primary use of a switchblade knife is a dangerous weapon and therefore constitutes a hazard if readily available to youth. We know of no legitimate use for which this type of knife is so particularly suited that a more conventional type of knife could not be utilized.

Michael J. Delaney, director of the crime prevention division of the Chicago Police Department, stated:

Legislation banning the interstate shipment of these knives would cause a reduction in juvenile delinquency, as many offenses committed by juveniles are done with the knowledge that he has a deadly weapon in his possession, which gives the juvenile the courage to perpetrate crimes.

The chief of police of Los Angeles, W. H. Parker, indicated complete approval of the bill and said this:

Most offenders are youthful and in the past we have found that a great number of juveniles involved in gang activities favor this type of weapon. A complete prohibition on manufacturing, transporting, and sales should be beneficial.

Stanley R. Schrotel, chief of the Cincinnati Police Department, said:

[The] legislation as proposed would reduce the likelihood of some serious forms of delinquency, especially in group conflict or aggravated assault situations.