labor organizations and employment agencies. We have broad coverage.

Senator CLARK. What have you done with respect to State employment?

Mr. LITVAK. Well, we went directly with the assistance of the Governor and the issuance of memorandums by the attorney general-we have had numerous seminars. We are in the process now of gathering statistics concerning the employment of Negroes in State government. We have held numerous conferences. As a matter of fact, in May of 1962 the Governor called a Governor's conference on human rights, and particularly what progress was being done with respect to fair employment practice law and means and methods of implementing this law, and some 500 people were present from public agencies, employers, labor organizations, and the like.

Senator CLARK. What about the 500 people?

Mr. LITVAK. At this conference we had approximately 500 representatives of public agencies, private employers, human relations groups, and employment agencies, all interested in obtaining information on how they can comply with our fair employment practice law.

You may be interested in some of our experiences, statisticwise. We have had approximately 45 complaints; the majority of these come from the St. Louis and Kansas City area. We have closed all but 19 of them by either no probable cause, insufficient evidence, or conciliation, and we have utilized our conciliation and persuasion procedure as a method of educating all of the people who are covered by this act, including our State administration. To date we have not had a single public hearings, which indicates that we have been able to resolve these complaints satisfactorily.

I think, also, I would like to observe that since the issuance of the President's Executive Order 10925, the establishment of the President's Committee on Equal Job Opportunity, that this has also contributed to creating an atmosphere of merit employment and the elimination of discrimination in employment in our State.

In conclusion I would like to say that the commission is of the opinion that, based on the results of our law, that you can obtain satisfactory results from the enactment of a fair employment practice law. Now, concerning the laws which are pending before this committee we have this observation to make. We note that in 773 and 1210, there appears to be an effort to preempt the field of discrimination in employment and we feel that the legislation concurrent, in other words, State agencies which are doing a job or attempting to do a job, should be permitted to continue to operate on a State level, that we are familiar with our conditions.

Senator CLARK. What do you think of the suggestions of Mr. Spitz and Mr. Howden that a standard should be set up for a State law and State administration of that law, and if that standard is met then the Federal Government should cede jurisdiction in that State?

Mr. LITVAK. I think that that would be a satisfactory resolution of that particular matter. In other words, we feel that if it is possible for the State to do the job and is doing the job that it should continue to be permitted to operate under its own fair employment practices

law.

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, sir, for your very helpful

statement.

Senator Pell, I have a lot of questions to ask these gentlemen; I think before I do so I ought to give you an opportunity.

Senator PELL. I have no questions. I came here to be educated and and I am listening to them.

Senator CLARK. We are both here to be educated.

Gentlemen, I would like to ask each of you, first, how many Negroes and other members of the minority groups such as Indians, Puerto Ricans, and Mexicans there are in each of your States with an indication of percentage of the total population that consists of.

Mr. Male?

Mr. MALE. Senator, the 1960 census of New Jersey showed just under 9 percent of New Jersey's population as Negro. In addition we have, I would guess, about 200,000 Puerto Ricans who are, of course, they have special problems, too, in the employment area. This varies, however, from some communities in New Jersey that may have no minority citizens at all, but in our largest cities, Newark, the population is in excess of 40 percent Negro.

Senator CLARK. Do you have many of these minority groups in your rural areas?

Mr. MALE. An increasing number are in rural areas, particularly, Senator, in the farming communities where some families have slipped off the migrant extreme, as it were, agricultural labor. Automation and mechanization in our fields, for example, in the potato counties, the three central counties of New Jersey, left several hundred families which normally found some kind of employment there left without any hope of income, sometimes not even get back to what they thought was home base. So, we have seen the development of what mostly has been called rural slum areas, and which in very substandard housing, of course, municipal ordinances provide protection against this. Senator CLARK. How about the recreational areas along the coast? Mr. MALE. Well, high, second I think only to Newark in the percentage of Negro population would be Atlantic City, which is a strong minority group base, and there again employment is largely seasonal and largely unskilled and, of course, low paid.

I think one thing, though, one of the witnesses mentioned the socalled new Negro, but think back into this gentleman's past, at least, I think the same is true of other sections of the country, we found that maybe we had better solutions to some of these problems a century ago than we do now. Actually in the building trades, factory employment, before even the American Revolution Negro citizens worked side by side in all the skills, and I find that even in a State like Mississippi this was true before the Civil War. So that I don't know what is new and what is old about this except maybe the problem shifts its emphasis, but I think that in New Jersey in some areas need to struggle to get back to the kind of equal opportunity we once had.

Senator CLARK. Thank you.

Now, Mr. Spitz, will you tell us the percentage and the distribution of the various minority groups in New York?

Mr. SPITZ. I do not have the exact figures available. It is my general recollection that about 10 percent of the population in New

York is Negro and a higher percentage in New York is Negro, Puerto Rican, and nonwhite. Other large metropolitan centers have high concentrations of Negroes and Puerto Ricans such as Buffalo, Albany, and other places.

Senator CLARK. Largely urban, however?

Mr. SPITZ. Urban.

Senator CLARK. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Howden?

Mr. HOWDEN. Mr. Chairman, the 1960 census shows the Negro population in California was around 880,000, and we suspect today probably it is approaching 1 million out of a present total population of about 17 million in California. The size of the Mexican-American population is at least somewhat larger, again figures are even the 1960 census are perhaps not too exact in terms of Spanish surnames. There is also a substantial Japanese-American, Chinese-American, Filipino group, some American Indians, and others. These latter groups comprise perhaps another 2,000 to 3,000.

Senator CLARK. Are there any special problems with respect to those non-Negro minority groups or in your State can all minority groups, so far as legislation, as far as their human rights are concerned be pretty well treated alike?

Mr. HOWDEN. There are some differentials as to the depth or intensity, to some extent the kinds of discrimination experienced by, let us say, experienced by Spanish-Americans as against the Negro Americans. The Negro is in worse shape in a broad sense. Particularly in southern California where there is a greater concentration of MexicanAmericans there is a rising consciousness of the extent to which Mexican-Americans are not yet at all in the mainstream of American life, that they are really not into the economy and the culture as fully as every group ought to be.

Senator CLARK. Would this comment apply also to Puerto Ricans? Mr. HOWDEN. We have had a much smaller immigration so far as Puerto Ricans in California than most other sections of the country and we don't know too much about this, but some are coming; we are not too well informed on this now.

Senator CLARK. Is there any real discrimination against the American Indian?

Mr. HOWDEN. There is in some areas, but this is a relatively small group in California, compared to the other problems. There would be some remaining forms of discrimination in employment and housing, but they would not loom large statistically.

Senator CLARK. Are they pretty well off the reservations now and intermingling with the rest of the people, or are they pretty well segregated on reservations?

Mr. HOWDEN. A great many of American Indians have come into California from reservations elsewhere, as a result of this urbanization program of recent years. There are still some on very small ranchorias, and in some cases are in very depressed economic situations and need like many Mexican-Americans and others to be brought into training situations and have intensive training.

Senator CLARK. Does the American Indian tend to stay on the land or does he got into the urban centers?

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Mr. HOWDEN. I think the movement is toward urban centers as in all other aspects of our life.

Senator CLARK. Thank you.

Mr. McDONALD. I think you told us you had 42,000 Negroes in Minnesota, out of a population of about how many?

Mr. McDONALD. About 32 million.

Senator CLARK. You have a number of Indians?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes; we do.

Senator CLARK. But very little in the way of Mexicans or Puerto Ricans?

Mr. McDONALD. Correct. In fact, the nonwhite population is 42,000, the Negro population is about 22,000, and I would say that the Indian population is about 18,000.

Senator CLARK. Now, where are the concentrations?

Mr. McDONALD. The concentrations of the Negroes are in the Twin Cities, the Minneapolis-St. Paul area and the concentration of Indians is divided between this urban center and the northern part of our State, the reservation area.

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. Litvak?

Mr. LITVAK. As I suggested, our total population was 4,319,000, and we have a Negro population of 390,000. The remaining minorities consisting of Indian, Japanese, Chinese, and Filipinos, constitute approximately 5,000. I think probably an important statistic though is the percentage of increase of our Negro population from 1950 to 1960 was 31.6 percent.

Senator CLARK. Is this in migration from the South?

Mr. LITVAK. Yes, sir; I would say that that was there is a constant movement of Negro population from the South into Missouri and

Senator CLARK. I think you said that your minority groups concentrated in the St. Louis, Kansas City, and southeast Missouri. Mr. LITVAK. Yes.

Senator CLARK. With respect to Kansas City and St. Louis, I imagine your problems are not very different from those of most of the larger urban centers?

Mr. LITVAK. They are typical; yes.

Senator CLARK. But I suspect you have a peculiar problem with respect to southeast Missouri, and I am wondering whether your commission has made any dent in the sociological attitude of that part of your State which I think is generally thought of as being rather completely a southern philosophy toward its problem?

Mr. LITVAK. I think we have created a climate or atmosphere of the idea of equal job opportunity. I would not say statistically that we have made any substantial progress, but nonetheless we feel like we are creating this atmosphere of acceptance and we have noticed in areas of public accommodation, for example, we are now obtaining the appointment of biracial committees to meet and discuss these problems, that insofar as State employment is concerned and the like, we are making some inroad in this area in southeast Missouri.

Senator CLARK. In terms of the difficulty of fulfilling your mission would you say that southeast Missouri was easier to handle or not as easy to handle as St. Louis and Kansas City?

Mr. LITVAK. Obviously not as easy to handle. Much more difficult. Senator CLARK. Now, gentlemen, I would like to get your advice, as though you were members of this subcommittee, as to where administratively you would lodge an FEP agecny? As you recall, S. 773 speaks or contemplates an independent agency in the executive department, Senator Humphrey would place the agency in the Department of Labor, at least in part. You gentlemen have testified that in your States the agencies have gone sometimes from one State agency to another. I think, Mr. Male, you said that you started off in education and went through labor and ended up in justice.

If you were going to draw a Federal law how would you set the enforcement agency? Where would you set the enforcement agency up?

Let's go down the line again.

Mr. MALE. As I said earlier this morning, I would strongly favor placing this administrative responsibility squarely in the U.S. Department of Labor and having its Administrator be at the highest possible level reporting to the Secretary of Labor. I would, I believe, favor, however, the proposal in Senator Humphrey's bill for an independent board or commission as an appellate step before moving from any problem at the administrative level on the courts. Perhaps my judgment on this independent agency is warped a little bit by New Jersey experience whereby our constitution, all our programs are tucked into one or another of our administrative agencies in the executive branch and we feel this has given us a little more vigorous administrative effort.

Senator CLARK. I take it from that you are not particularly happy in having the agency in the department of justice in New Jersey now? Mr. MALE. No, I think that New Jersey was responding to the strong feeling that it needed more legal punch, perhaps, but my own personal view would be that since are are talking here this morning about employment opportunity, I notice this morning everybody from the States are talking about complaints and, you know, the actual work in this area. I think that the agency of government, State level and Federal level, that has thousands of daily contacts in this employment thing is your manpower agency, at the Federal level the U.S. department, and all of its branches, and to bring that into dayto-day focus rather than to have an outside kind of searchlight, whether it be called educational, law enforcement, would make it in my judgment less controversial, too, because I think there would be opportunities for making this kind of thing an approach available in noncontested situations and yet not just in a loose educational sense. Senator CLARK. While you are at it I would like to get the comment of each of you as to your advice on whether the Federal setup should be confined to fair employment practices or whether fair employment practices should be one, but only one of a series of functions of a Federal commission which would deal across the board with all human rights as is the case in many of your States?

Mr. MALE. Well, at the State level our agency does concern itself broadly with housing, education, and other aspects. That is one reason it is not placed in the department of labor. I think that a commission or board may have a wider view of the civil rights responsi