Mr. MILLER. Precisely. While we are on the subject of training, Senator, I should like to point out that measures to provide more training for Negroes and measures to equalize opportunities for employment must go hand in hand. They are part of the same problem and one without the other might do more harm than good.

If we spend hundreds of millions of dollars to train Negroes and then do not provide job opportunities for them, the situation could become worse than it now is. We would have large numbers of trained people, who would want to work, but they would have nothing to do. So you see, increased training and equalization of employment opportunities must go together.

Senator CLARK. I understand that, what you suggest might happen here, actually is happening in many of the newly independent African countries where the ambition is to be a lawyer or a doctor, or a professional man, and you cannot find anybody trained to handle the very intricate and difficult problems of business and trade which are essential to their prosperity. That would be the same sort of thing, would it not?

Mr. MILLER. It is analogous. I have tried to show in the statistical tables I have presented that the Negro has a dual handicap. He works at far lower paid jobs than the whites and even when he works at the same kind of job he is paid far less. As a result, the figures show that the Negro college graduate makes less than the white who has had only 8 years of elementary school. These figures are shocking to me because they show the serious dilemma that the average Negro family faces. Why spend 4 years going to college if all you are going to be when you get through is a teacher or a mailman and earn less money than the white who did not even have to go beyond elementary school?

Senator CLARK. I think it is shocking, period.

You are pretty sure you are right, are you? It is so shocking I kind of raise the question whether this can be true?

Mr. MILLER. Senator, these figures have been checked over and over again. There is always the possibility that numbers are wrong: but I don't think that is true in this case. I might add that these relationships are no different in 1960 than they were in 1950.

In the last part of my prepared statement I focus on two things that I think are of importance to the committee: one is the factor of education by itself. Does education pay off? If all you are going to be is a bricklayer or a carpenter or a busdriver, does it pay to struggle through those last 4 years of high school to get your diploma? According to the census figures, it can be shown that in every occupation for which data are available the man with the high school diploma gets more than the man who quit school after he completed the eighth grade.

Senator CLARK. Now, wait a minute. You are getting me a little confused again. You said a minute ago that the average at least I thought you said, and this is what shocked me that the average Negro high school graduate made less money than the average white elementary school graduate.

Mr. MILLER. Negro college graduate.
Senator CLARK. College graduate?
Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Senator CLARK. Having said that, will you now repeat the last statement you made?

Mr. MILLER. Now I am talking about the total population, not whites or nonwhites. The point I want to establish, because I think the problem is of interest to you in another connection, is that high school training definitely does pay off for whites and nonwhites. In every occupation that I have studied there is financial return for 4 years of high school. I do not know exactly what it means or why it happens. I think to some extent people who go through high school are more intelligent and perhaps they are getting a return for greater ability; but there are also institutional factors involved. The man with a high school diploma who is, for example, a bus driver, can get a job for a transcontinental bus company. The man who does not have the high school diploma is more limited in what he can do. He may become a delivery man for a small retail store. The same would be true with a carpenter. A carpenter who goes through high school can read blueprints; he can get a job with a large construction company and be regularly employed. The uneducated carpenter gets a job with a small contractor, finishes it and goes down to the union hall to get another.

But, when we look at the differentials for whites and nonwhites, we find that the Negro carpenter who has gone to high school does not make as much as the white who has only gone through elementary school. We come back to the same problem. Education pays for the Negro just as it does for the white, even if he is in an unskilled job; but the returns to the Negro are very much less than they are to the white.

Senator PELL. Mr. Miller, I would like to interrupt here for a couple of questions.

What is the relative longevity of Negroes and whites? Is it the same?

Mr. MILLER. Longevity in terms of

Senator PELL. Years of life.

Mr. MILLER. You are talking about the lifetime earnings data?
Senator PELL. Yes.

Mr. MILLER. There is a difference. The white has a longer lifespan than the nonwhite and this tends to increase his earnings.

Senator PELL. Then, would that not perhaps account for part of the increased earnings?

Mr. MILLER. It would account for a very small part of it. According to my figures, nonwhites can expect average lifetime earnings of $122,000. This estimate is based on the life expectancy of nonwhites. I prepared the same estimate for nonwhites using the lifespan of whites and figure that the average was increased to $130,000. There is an increase, but not enough to wipe out the differential we are talking

about.

Senator PELL. There is another question that bothers me. I am trying to get the figures on it. One of the problems we face in my own State is motivation-the problem of getting the Negro community not. to drop out of high school and to go on to college, and the figures are hard to come by and are disappointing when you do come by them. Do you have any figures as to the same economic group, what is the rate

of Negro dropouts in high school as compared to whites among families with incomes of $4,000, $3,000, et cetera, instead of the overall average? Do you have those figures?

Mr. MILLER. I am not sure if such figures have been tabulated from the 1960 census by State.

Senator PELL. Is the increased number of dropouts due to the fact that the economic background of the families is less advantageous? Is it because they are poorer? Do you have any figures to back this up? Mr. MILLER. I would have to check, Senator, I am not sure.

Senator PELL. I wish you would, and perhaps you might also file a separate statement to this subcommittee showing the rates of high school graduates, of those who matriculate in college and of college graduates for some arbitrarily selected family income groups-let us say $3,000, $4,000, or $5,000.

Mr. MILLER. National figures may be available on that subject, but not for whites and nonwhites.

Senator PELL. If you could break it down for Rhode Island I would appreciate it.

Mr. MILLER. I can say this, Senator, on the basis of my knowledge of the data. The really important variable in education, the education of children, is the education of the parents-even more important than income. You will find, for example, that the college man who has a low income (under $5,000) is just as likely to send his child to college as the high school graduate who has an income of over $10,000. If the father has gone to college, his child is also likely to go to college. If the father has not had much education himself, he is not likely to place very much emphasis on education. In the case of the Negro, this is undoubtedly a very important aspect of the problem. Senator CLARK. If Senator Pell will recall, we had some very interesting testimony from the manufacturer in Stamford, Conn., indicating his strong view that one of the major factors in the inadequacy of employment opportunity at higher levels for Negroes, and his company was trying to find Negroes who could move into positions of responsibility and, therefore, of higher income, was that the young Negro would be much more apt, because of income factors, than the young white to quit school in order to take a job available to him which would help the family income rather than stay in school with no income hopefully in the end to get a better job.

I take it that what you have been telling us will confirm that purely empirical testimony.

Mr. MILLER. What you say is true, but the problem is even more complex than that. Many Negroes undoubtedly drop out of school for economic reasons. I also believe that the cultural background of many Negroes does not attach much importance to education.

Incidentally, I think this attitude might change in time. If Negroes can get into better jobs they may then be motivated to send their children to school so that they, in turn, might get better jobs.

Senator CLARK. For example, we have in my State, unhappily, many, many Negro families whose children have never seen a book until they go to school, because there are no books in the house. The mother and father either cannot read or do not want to read, and this must have, I would think, an enormous psychological bearing on the passion of that child to get himself well educated in the ordinary case.

Mr. MILLER. I would say there is no question about that.
Senator CLARK. We have been interrupting you. Are you through?
Mr. MILLER, Yes, Senator.

Senator CLARK. Senator Pell, do you have any further questions? Senator PELL. No, I just want to back up what Senator Clark said because the question is: How do we break the circle? How do we provide the motivation? This is the thrust of our arguments in this hearing.

Senator CLARK. I think this has been one of the problems that has been puzzling us ever since we started the hearings several months ago.

Mr. MILLER. Senator, I would like to make a remark on that. Here we are speculating about the Negro's lack of motivation. We might just as well tie a man's legs together and then wonder how fast he

can run.

The

This is a very complex problem. The lack of motivation is caused by the lack of success. Life for most Negroes is just a vicious circle that keeps grinding down and down and deeper and deeper. question you ask, Senator, will never be answered until the Negro is given an equal opportunity with the whites and until he has some time to make up for gross injustices done in the past.

Senator PELL. But are not the professional opportunities better now for Negroes than for whites-for stenographers, for engineers, for electricians, for technicians-thanks to the Government's efforts and because of the efforts of many corporations to avoid criticism? Mr. MILLER. They may be, but I doubt it. Even if what you say is true today, I doubt very much that it was true a year ago before the current pressure was brought to bear.

Senator CLARK. I think you have to remember, though, in spite of the vicious circle, and I accept that concept, that there have been and are every day more and more Negroes able to break out of that pattern and nonetheless to get ahead. Sure, the climate of opinion helps them, but the thought that we would have a Negro as a judge of a court of appeals of the United States and that you would have Negroes seriously being considered for appointment to the Supreme Court of the United States does indicate that if you have got the brains and the ability you can break out of that. And this leads me to another question and my last one:

It bothers me very much. There is no statistical way, is there, of measuring either aptitude or IQ so as to fit these factors into the overall economic conclusions that you have testified to? In other words, there is a widespread suspicion, and I wonder if there is any way of proving it unfounded or of substantiating it, that for a number of reasons, including economic, social, and intellectual background for a good many centuries, you do not have the same level of ability in terms of earning income or in terms of becoming a leader of the community in the Negro race as you do in the white race. Most people, I think, would say this is an environmental factor rather than a hereditary factor, but there is certainly that feeling, and I wonder if there is any way of either proving it true or untrue, that inadequate income, inadequate job opportunity is to some extent a result of a low level of aptitude or a low level of intelligence.

Mr. MILLER. There are several ways to answer that question. Most anthropologists would agree that if there are differences in measured intelligence (IQ) between whites and nonwhites they are due to cultural rather than genetic factors.

Senator CLARK. I would agree with that.

Mr. MILLER. Another way to approach this problem is to compare the economic status of uneducated whites and nonwhites. If we examine the mores of untrained whites and nonwhites doing the same kinds of jobs in the same geographic area we find here differences of 30 and 40 percent in favor of the white.

Senator CLARK. Thirty and forty percent in terms of what?

Mr. MILLER. In terms of income. Now, it seems to me, this is part of the answer to your question. You do not have to look at the educated and then wonder if one man's high school diploma or college degree is the same as the other man's. Take two groups who are equally uneducated, doing equally unskilled work and you still find these tremendous differences in earnings. This, I think, is part of the answer to your question. There may be differences in basic ability, but certainly discrimination is a very important factor, too.

Senator CLARK. I do not doubt that a bit, but I wonder what would happen if you were able to make public the aptitude and intelligence tests which I think are normally given to all children in high school today, are they not?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, they are.

Senator CLARK. And were to compare those tests on a racial basis. Do you know of any study of that sort which has ever been made?

Mr. MILLER. I know of some studies like that that have been made. One study that was made for a large Midwestern city, is titled "Education and Income," by Patricia Sexton. It was not done racially but it was done by broad economic groups. She found that children from low-income areas have lower IQ's when they enter school than do children from high income areas.

Senator CLARK. But not racially?

Mr. MILLER. Not racially; only by broad economic groups. But these results are easy to explain away. IQ does not measure native intelligence. A child from a high-income family is exposed to more preschool training than the child from a low-income family. He gets blocks to fit together, squares to manipulate, language puzzles, and many other educational toys. All of this training must have a great impact on IQ. I do not think you have any guidelines here really, but your faith in democracy. You cannot turn to an IQ test, and I do not think you have to turn to an IQ test to tell you that inherently all groups of people have the same potential and that differences in achievement are primarily due to differences in opportunity. Senator CLARK. You really mean that?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Senator CLARK. Do you mean to tell me that you think that all of the boys in your high school class when you went to high school had the same potential level of ability?

Mr. MILLER. I don't think everyone individually had the same potential, but I think every group-the Irish, Italians, Puerto Ricans, Jews, Negroes-had the same potential, given the same opportunities.