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I patron local stores frequently with my guide dog. In one local store I was asked to leave because dogs were allowed. I I explained that she was a guide dog for blind people. They insisted I leave the dog outside, I said that the law protected me, and that I had a right to be in the store. The Manager physically pushed me oat of the store. I went home called the police. They didmt tjomk ot was a big deal. I pleaded with them and said my rights were at stake. I went back to the store and met the police. Eventually, I was allowed to go back in. Amazing, throughout the whole situation, other customers just looked on, no one wanted to get omvplved/ I have been subjected to similar treatments in Boston stores as well!

Public transportation is difficult because all announcements about any changes are done over PA systems, which is not communication accessible for any persons who are deaf, for those of us who are both hearing and visually impairdifficult.

Led it is very

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It kind of overwhelms me to put all this down on paper, and I know there is so much more to say, but I've said enough for now. I feel that to be able to testify today is a wonderful experience, thank you for caring! I look forward to the day when we can all live togethe on equal terms, in harmony and without the fear that create the barriers and are more disabling than our disabilities are.

Janet M. Kyriess

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I want to mention a few points in reference to the world of work to highlight the type of discrimination i have experienced.

in the pasti I rarely had difficulty finding a job, During interviews I was honest about my hearing impairment explaining that people had to face me when they talked to me so that I could read lips, not talk to me from behind me. And that using the phone would not be such that would not any benefit. I was still hired with oral promises that there would be no problem to these accommodations. It was after I was on the job for a couple of months that pressure would be put on me to use the phone to make business calls, and when I asserted that I had made it clear in the interview that it would not be reasonable to expect, I was met with anger and had to experience a great deal of tension. I was never given promotions or pay increases the excuse being that because I was unable to use the phone I could not be promoted. No efforts were made to work it out even though I rated high in my reviews. Also people were continually forgetting to speak to me face on and were constantly putting pressure on me to get the information and do my job efficiently while they refused to take the time to give it to me in a way I needed. My only option was to eventually leave.

Discrimination with communication is very subtle and complex and needs desperately to be changed. Especially in the case of myself who spent 13 years in speech and auditory training and speak well, and people expect that i "should be able to hear well too"

*Now, it would be quite different with both a hearing

STATEMENT OF JOSEPH CAUDRE, AIDS ADVISORY BOARD, STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS

Mr. CAUDRE. I am a member of AIDS Advisory Board for the State of Massachusetts which deals with Social Security. And one of the problems that I have heard about in the last couple of weeks were the turnover rate of the counselors at Social Security offices throughout New England which have been so severe that each of these counselors or the people who are replaced either get paid at a reduced rate or are not getting paid enough, so, they have a Social Security Administration-at least in this region-has a high turnover rate. And, therefore, if they talk work incentives or any other area which are concerned with disability individuals, they do not give out the right kind of information.

Last week, I was at a consumer conference which the Massachusetts Rehab Commission held and I heard two stories about the incentive situation at least in the New England area. And these clients called up their Social Security Administrations in their area and got two different stories. This is a large problem because I feel that Social Security ought to have a much better understanding of the board incentive program. If they are going to serve the disabled people and provide jobs for them, they have got to have a much better understanding of the incentives that are there. A lot of the regulations that SSA has are out of date or they are nonproductive for workers, for disabled people who want to become workers, work-related individuals and taxpayers.

For me, this is a personal point: I am getting a job. And the rules and regulations that Social Security is dealing with, as far as I am concerned and a lot of disabled people who are in my situation, they are disincentives. If you will check the regulations, I think you will understand exactly why.

I have too short a time to really explain, but if you check the regulations, I think you will understand why a lot of disabled people do not work. In fact, if you do not work, you get more benefits. It is just that simple.

Mr. OWENS. Do you think this is a public policy problem or a discrimination problem?

Mr. CAUDRE. It is both. And the Reagan administration has made it worse in the last 8 years.

Mr. OWENS. Thank you.

Mr. Atkinson.

STATEMENT OF RAY ATKINSON, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR INDEPENDENT LIVING AND WORKING, WORCESTER, CT Mr. ATKINSON. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman. My name is Ray Atkinson. I am the assistant director at the Center for Independent Living and Working in Worcester. And I have been disabled for 15 years, now. And throughout that timeframe, I have become pretty much a good self-advocate and I have learned how to make the best of the situation, so to speak.

So, today, rather than talk about small instances I might run into in day-to-day living, such as restaurants, transportation, things like that, I think I would rather be an advocate of the clients of the Center for Independent Living and Working, incorporated in Worcester.

Some of the problem areas or areas that could use improvement with Federal moneys, aspects of housing, when people become disabled. They are looking to go we have got a transitional program there where we can take on as many as seven clients at one particular point in time. And after the fact we have done the 9-month transitional program, we have to try placement for them. And there is a housing shortage for everybody. And it seems to be more prevalent, even, for the disabled population because of the fact that just a certain percentage is allocated or accessible for disabled per

sons.

The second point I would like to make would be the aspect of transportation. I live in Fitchburg, myself. I would have liked to have taken the train to come in, but it is not set up, as of yet, to make it accessible for persons in a wheelchair to take the train into Boston. I know it takes Federal moneys and some administrative push to make these things happen so that persons can come into such a function like today and be able to speak without having to rely on others.

Another aspect I would like to talk about briefly would be employment. Many-there have been great strides in employment. I think people are doing as much as is required of them at present time. I think today's meeting might require employers to do just a little bit more to make people with disabilities more marketable in the job place and give them an opportunity to be persons who can become productive members of society, build their self-esteem and be proud to be out there in the work force.

I think the aspect of housing is important, the aspect of transportation to get to and from work is important and the aspect of allocating Federal moneys for employment also so that there could possibly be some sort of a watchdog committee so that these things could transpire, will help everybody as a whole in the future to come. And I hope after November 8, these things will come about. I appreciate your time, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. OWENS. Thank you very much. I want to thank all the members of the panel. Thank you all for testifying.

The next panel is Cathie Marshall, Rima Sutton, and Laurie Williams. Ms. Sutton is the director of the National Multiple Sclerosis Society.

Ms. Sutton, you may begin.

STATEMENT OF RIMA SUTTON, SERVICE COORDINATOR, NATIONAL MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS SOCIETY, MANCHESTER, NH Ms. SUTTON. Thank you. Just a small correction. I am really the service coordinator for the MS Society.

Mr. OWENS. Service coordinator for the Multiple Sclerosis Society.

Ms. SUTTON. Right. I help people with multiple sclerosis obtain services, provide information and referrals, and help with problems

that they face. Many of their problems are caused by discrimination. Discrimination toward the handicap takes many forms, but I will focus on four: employment, insurance, including health and life, housing and accessibility.

At this time, when an individual in New Hampshire becomes disabled, they can be fired from their job if they are physically unable to do it. No accommodations of any kind are required of the employer by law. In many cases, disabled people are able to continue working with minimum modifications. Unfortunately, most employers will not even consider these simple and easy options.

I know a woman who was required to climb a spiral staircase to get to her desk when her legs could hardly support her. It would have been quite simple to move her down to the first floor so that she could continue working her desk job.

I know a man who used to work in a hospital in which he was required to be on his feet for 8 to 10 hours a day. He began falling. When he asked to be reassigned to more sedentary work, he was told that either he accept forced retirement or work in the laundry.

People with MS cannot tolerate heat or humidity, nor do they want to work for minimum wage. It is a waste of these people's potential to completely shut them out of the workplace and creates economic hardship for them and their families.

One woman I know applied for Social Security disability after being fired from her job. She waited approximately 6 months for a decision and was denied. In the meantime, no money was coming in at all. She has the right to appeal, but this process often takes as long as a year.

Another major problem disabled people face is an inability to obtain health or life insurance. Insurance companies refuse to sell them policies under the preexisting clause condition.

I know a man that wanted to buy life insurance for his family of six, but could not find one carrier in the whole State of New Hampshire to offer him a policy.

Multiple sclerosis is not a fatal disease. Nor are many other disabilities. An even uglier form of discrimination is insurance companies that cancel existing health insurance policies when they find out that an individual is disabled. I know a woman who worked for a company for 10 years before she was diagnosed as having MS. Not only was she fired from her job, but both her short term and long-term disability was cancelled. After paying for this insurance for 10 years, she is denied her right to use it now that she needs it. Disabled people need health insurance. Their medical costs are high. They are willing to pay high premiums for it.

In New Hampshire, we have a great need for more handicapped housing. I know of one family in New Hampshire that searched all summer for a handicapped accessible apartment for their family of four. They were finally forced to move into a one-room motel efficiency while the local housing authority continued looking. The State of New Hampshire does not have a central office that maintains listings of available handicapped units. Often when a handicapped unit becomes available, it gets rented to a nonhandicapped person. As of October 1, this family still has not found an apart

ment.