More than 40,000 individuals each and every year apply for social security or SSI benefits. People receiving these benefits receive them for extended periods of time.

If in some small part, making our society more accessible, making the workplaces more accessible, making communication, making transportation more accessible can dent this large number of people every year going on to government benefits, we will save substantial dollars.

I do not think though that we can hold out the Americans With Disabilities Act as a dollar savings type program. It is the right thing to do to make our society accessible to this group of individuals.

It also makes sense in terms of assisting people with disabilities in becoming employed and participating in the workplace. But it also makes sense in terms of bringing these people into our society. Mr. OWENS. Ms. Durrett, do you care to comment?

Ms. DURRETT. I would certainly underscore what Barry and Greg have both indicated. I think it is a double-headed issue here in terms of the economic issue wherein the fear of the unknown, we think something new like this is going to cost without our realizing that the costs we are already paying are certainly there.

The other part of it is the attitudinal issue. And I think that is that whole part about making our accommodations, making our society accessible to people with disabilities begins to change people's attitudes about people's disabilities because they are evident to them. They have an opportunity to see what people can do.

And I think in itself is going to make a major dent in additional programs and additional opportunities for people with disabilities. Mr. OWENS. Thank you. Mr. Jontz?

Mr. JONTZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no questions. I want to thank all three of the representatives from the state for their strong endorsement of the legislation and I think it reflects not only the personal commitment of the agencies and people you represent to the disabled in our state, to people with disabilitiesbut also our Governor for having appointed you all to these important jobs.

And I certainly want to thank Mr. Lee his testimony and his suggestion. I think that all of us in the Congress and in the public will have a responsibility to work and educate society at large about what the Americans With Disabilities Act is all about.

And I certainly want to work with my colleagues to undertake this sort of effort to change attitudes that will be necessary for the implementation of the legislation. So thank you all for your testimony this afternoon. I really appreciate your sharing these views and recommendations with us.

Mr. OWENS. Thank you very much.

Our next panel consists of Dr. Jack Lewis who is a professor of Sociology and Social Work at Anderson University in Indiana; Mr. David Reynolds, a teacher at the Indiana School for the Deaf; and Ms. Janna Shishler, a law clerk here in Indianapolis.

Each speaker will address a particular aspect of the bill. Dr. Lewis and Mr. Reynolds will talk about education, and Ms. Shishler about employment.

Dr. Lewis.

STATEMENT OF JACK LEWIS, PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY AND SOCIAL WORK ANDERSON UNIVERSITY, INDIANA

Dr. LEWIS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am Professor of Sociology and Social Work at Anderson University here in Anderson, Indiana. I am also a member of the Governor's Planning Council for People with Disabilities and a member and active in the American Council of the Blind of Indiana and have been very active in organizational work for the blind for approximately 30 years.

And I particularly am enthusiastic about the Americans With Disabilities Act for persons in education. I myself am legally blind with 10 percent vision. I do not see well enough to recognize faces but I do see well enough to tell who is sleeping.

And I am very grateful for the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 that I am employed in higher education. The Americans With Disabilities Act I think has promise to integrate many more disabled people into education and employment as that the Rehab Act failed to accomplish.

And in that regard, I did want to bring up one particular concern that I noticed that the definition of a person with a disability has been carried over from the 1973 Rehabilitation Act in Section 504 and Section 503 as well as other parts of the Rehab Act.

And it says in effect that a person with a disability is a person that has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more of its major life activities, a person who has had such an impairment, a person who has been considered as having such an impairment.

And the concern is, that just what does that mean? And the reason that I am emphasizing that is this, that I understand why the definition is so broad. Because it is an opportunity to encompass many disabled people who have been discriminated against under the Act to help them to receive equality in the American

way.

But it also might be presenting problems for persons with severe disabilities.

Back in 1978, I did a series of workshops around the state of Indiana on Section 503 of the 1973 Rehabilitation Act pertaining to employment in private industry.

And a personnel director of one of the major industries says listen, "I do not have to worry about this. I am complying." He said, "I have gone through my files and I have found that approximately 25 percent of my workers fit the definition of a disabled person with lower back problems, heart problems, having had psychological counseling and so forth."

And the point that needs to be stressed for education as well as any of the other areas designed for employment for disabled persons is that unless there is some incentive to give consideration to the severely handicapped, I think that we run the risk of finding that 10 years or 15 years later, we may find people with marginal disabilities working, having benefited from the Act but yet the severely disabled people still at home, unemployed or underemployed.

And I sincerely believe that some way the definition needs to be examined in consideration of giving impetus for consideration of the severely disabled person.

Now, as far as other aspects of education is concerned, many years ago at the school for the blind where I attended in Georgia, the superintendent once said that most people's handicap is above the eyes. And this is certainly true.

And when it is above the eyes of an employer, it is certainly very undesirable and very much a detriment as far as employing disabled people.

But when the handicap is above the eyes of the disabled person too, then that certainly is a very serious barrier. And education has been designed as a means of trying to prepare persons for independence in life and for employment including disabled people.

But for disabled people, too often it has had a counter-effect in terms of building dependency. Think about it. More than once a person in a wheelchair has had to go through the humiliation of being picked up and carried upstairs to get to a particular laboratory or a particular classroom.

Visually impaired people such as myself have had to depend on readers and had to arrange our schedules for the convenience of other people.

So much of the lives of disabled people in higher education and education in general has been having to adjust their lives and their schedules for the convenience of others because of the dependent positions that they are in.

The Americans With Disabilities Act certainly would do a great deal to offset that. Requiring a reasonable accommodation is certainly justified.

There is no reason why every university library and every library in a public school should not have a voice synthesizer with their computer terminals in the library.

Right now I can go to my computer and interface with Ball State Library, search out material, read the annotations, screen my material which certainly enables me to be a lot more independent in doing my research.

And the utilization of TDD machines for the deaf should certainly be in every university and the ADA would certainly make that a possibility.

But I think what we need to keep in mind is, that the ADA will enable people to achieve greater success in life economically as well as life satisfaction.

But also it will help to assure and condition people for independence. So much of education has been a disincentive in terms of creating dependency.

But with the reasonable accommodations that are available today particularly through high technology, there is no reason why disabled people cannot come out of schools, not only with a diploma, not only with job readiness but also with a strong self-concept where they see themselves as first-class citizens and not secondclass citizens.

And I believe that, that is one of the major strengths of the Americans With Disabilities Act. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. OWENS. Thank you. Mr. Reynolds.

STATEMENT OF DAVID REYNOLDS, INDIANA SCHOOL FOR THE DEAF, VIA INTERPRETER

Mr. REYNOLDS. Good afternoon. My name is David Reynolds. I am a teacher at the Indiana School for the Deaf and I am a thirdgeneration deaf person. My three children are fourth-generation deaf.

I attended the Illinois School for the Deaf and I attended Galludet University. As you know, where Galludet had the protest recently.

I got my Bachelor's Degree there and I got it in English. I also went to the Western Maryland College and received my Master's Degree there.

I have been very, very active in the State of Indiana in various deaf organizations. We have the Indiana School for the Deaf Alumni Association. And we have the Indiana Association of the Deaf.

And we also have many, many other organizations that I am actively involved with.

A year ago on March 1, I was very actively involved when we protested because we were not getting quality education in the State of Indiana. And I was the chair person of that committee that organized that protest.

I am currently the co-chair person of the communications curriculum committee at the Indiana School for the Deaf where we are trying to change the philosophy of the school to a more bilingual, bicultural program because we recognize that deaf children's native language is American sign language.

As you all know, at the Galludet protest there was a very deep purpose there. And that purpose is that deaf people want to be independent and take control of decision making.

We do not want to be controlled by hearing people. That has happened for more than 150 years. Hearing people have continued to try to tell us what to do and we do not want that anymore.

We must take control of our educational system. Our educational system in the United States must give children the opportunity to learn and we must lead our educational system.

And that means that we must have more deaf people in administrative positions. We must have more deaf teachers because that gives us access to our language.

And what that means is that we will have role models. And this is where we see that ADA can help us because you can help us get that access to communication.

Our language is different and that is very important. That is the issue. We do not have much access to communication.

Also when you are talking about hiring processes, currently there are a majority of hearing administrators. Currently, there are a majority of hearing teachers. Their view is very different from a deaf person's viewpoint.

But up until now, we have not been able to voice our concerns and our views. Here in the State of Indiana, we currently have tests that teachers must take and those tests are geared for English-speaking people.

Those tests do not give many opportunities for deaf people. A deaf person needs more access. They need more choices. They need maybe to use a video tape so that they can take these tests through American sign language.

So they need more access and more choices. Like the person or Dr. Lewis or someone just said on the panel talking about attitudes, attitude is very important.

We have been oppressed by hearing people for many years. We know that hearing people can work with us. We want them to work with us but their attitude has been very oppressive toward the deaf community.

We have not been allowed to have access to our communication system and our language. We do not have many devices where we need to have them. For example, we do not have a lot of TDD's and TTY's at the School for the Deaf. We do not have an emergency alarm system at the School for the Deaf. There are no flashing lights.

And it is so sarcastic. They just put in an intercom system at the School for the Deaf and how crazy is that? I mean it makes no sense to have that.

Also we do not have enough interpreters. And that is another lack of access. We do not have enough captions in the school. We need more television sets even in the school itself that are captioned.

I am very concerned myself because I am thinking of the future of deaf children in this country. I am thinking of my own deaf children, my own three deaf children at home. I want all deaf children in this country to have equal access to what they need.

I think ADA can really help us. I think that we can have less discrimination in the schools and less discrimination in the workplace.

We need to be in control of our educational system. That is very crucial. Also related to deaf offices in the State of Indiana, they are currently looking for people to run those offices and it is very important to have deaf people that are involved in the screening process and we do not have that currently.

Deaf people are very unique. We are a very unique, "handicap." It separates us from all of the people here in this room.

The only thing that is different about us is our communications. Our language is different. We are not physically impaired but our communication and our language is very important and we do not have access to that.

We need support and we need help. Thank you very much.
Mr. OWENS. Thank you. Janna Shishler.

STATEMENT OF JANNA SHISHLER, LAW CLERK, INDIANAPOLIS MS. SHISHLER. I am pleased to be here and unlike most of the rest of the people that have been on the panels, I have not been involved with the disability movement much at all.

I have been in school for the past eight years and just got out last year. And so I feel as though my testimony is going to be much more personal about my own experiences rather than on a more general level.