ting rights-of-way for a couple of the small railroads in that particular area, who at that time I do not think had enough money to even cut their rights-of-ways. But it was more or less of a fire protection.

I gained weight. I met a lot of people, a lot of boys, that I possibly would never had met otherwise. The fellowship that I had with these boys was quite beneficial to me. And our instructors, our supervisors, showed us how to get together with the various boys and to be friends and what-not.

To me, the CCC program at that time was one of the best things that could have happened to the country.

Should I go on further?

Senator RANDOLPH. Please continue.

Mr. HEHLE. Being with law enforcement, I was with the State police, and was elected sheriff. In fact, for the last 15 or 16 years I have been in law enforcement work. And I have seen a steady increase in juvenile delinquency. Especially in Jefferson County have I noticed that boys that graduate from high school, or do not graduate from high school, find there is nothing for them to do. Most boys like to have just a little bit of money, spending money. They are going to try to get that in one way or another. And our indictments in court in the past couple of years have shown a steady increase of youngsters, with no jobs or anything else, trying to get a little bit of money. And today, at Pruntytown, our State Industrial Schools for Boys, you have to get on a waiting list before you can take one of those boys to Pruntytown. If such a program were devised, it would take a lot. of these boys that have nothing, no jobs, and put them to some good use, where they will be making a litle bit of money, and anybody who can work feels much better toward themselves and the general public, if they can make it rather than having it given to them.

In the State of West Virginia, I do not know of very many improvements that have been made to our camps and our various recreational areas since the time of the CCC's. Blackwater Falls, State Hawk's Nest, Capon, or many of the others there have been no improvements to those places since the CCC's built them. Our forest trails, a lot of them, have grown up. And at the time when I quit the CCC's and came back to the nursery at Parsons, I was offered a job there.

Senator RANDOLPH. That is the Forest Service nursery?

Mr. HEHLE. The Forest Service nursery. At that time we had a program of producing 5 million trees a year, which were put out in a reforestation program. It went along that way for a few years, and then there was a steady decline as far as the appropriations were concerned toward reforestation, soil conservation, or any other thing that went along with the reforestation program.

I fought fires all over the counties of Randolph, Jefferson, Pocahontas, and Greenbrier, and all of those denuded areas that were cut back in the days when they had just come in and stripped the timber— there are slashings and everything like that lying all over that ground, and nothing growing there but brush. And if a good program were started whereby some of the areas were reforested, and if that could be continued, I know West Virginia as well as other States would benefit from that in later years by having an adequate supply of timber. I know of one instance. Fernow Experimental Forest is now producing timber. I do not know the amount of money that is being realized through the sale of timber, but that was planted through CCC.

Senator RANDOLPH. Where was that planted?

Mr. HEHLE. Fernow Experimental Forest.

Senator RANDOLPH. That is Fernow, F-e-r-n-o-w. Yes; he was a well known conservationist in our State.

Mr. HEHLE. And I know of another project down below Parsons, where they planted white pine and oak. And that timber now is about 20 inches or 22 inches in diameter. Well, that is something that the country needs. It is something that all denuded areas need. And we need something in the CCC's now in connection with building dams, for watersheds, for the various streams. Back in the 1950's when that cloudburst hit the State, if there were dams put across these streams— there were several lives lost there. We need things like that, dams built, roads built, fire trails, reforestation. And all that could be done with these boys.

But the big problem is getting the boys off the street who have nothing to do, keeping them out of trouble. And I believe as the Representative stated it would be better to spend money for this than for prisons or larger industrial schools for the boys.

Senator RANDOLPH. You spoke of Pruntytown. That is our West Virginia industrial school for boys; is that correct?

Mr. HEHLE. Yes, sir.

Senator RANDOLPH. And I believe you said that there is a waiting list for entrance to that school at the present time.

Mr.HEHLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HEHLE. The first of last week, there was a boy sentenced to Pruntytown by Judge Rogers.

Senator RANDOLPH. That is Judge Rogers, of the circuit court? Mr. HEHLE. Yes, sir. And I called the industrial school, wanting to know when I could bring this boy. And they said they could not accept him before the 19th of this month, but they would have some boys that they were releasing, and at that time they would be able to accept him. And that has happened to me two or three other times. There is no room for them.

Senator RANDOLPH. Sheriff Hehle, are you in touch with any of the CCC boys of other years who are now men active in business and public life? Do you know what has happened to any of those men? Mr. HEHLE. Yes; some of them have gone on establishing their own business.

Senator RANDOLPH. What are they doing?

Mr. HEHLE. I know one boy is head of a large baking company out in Cumberland, Md., and he is the representative for the entire eastern area of West Virginia and Virginia and Maryland, that section that borders West Virginia. He is the only boy that I have had any contact with since.

Senator RANDOLPH. You discussed the need for tree planting, and reforestation. You mentioned the nursery at Parsons, which is in the Monongahela National Forest. I wonder: Is there a representative of the Forest Service here today?

(Discussion off the record.) (See Forest Service letter, June 1, 1959, appendix, p. 531.)

Senator RANDOLPH. Mr. Hehle, did you have a desire to become a worthwhile man as you worked in the CCC program? I am sure that

the background of earning your way through school is indicative of your desire to make good. But did the CCC's help you? Could you definitely put your finger on the help that it was to you as an individual?

Mr. HEHLE. Well, that was my first time away from home, and it got me in with a group.

Senator RANDOLPH. Working with a group?

Mr. HEHLE. Working with a group; making me more or less dependent upon myself, also. To me that is a great thing to any boy who is coming into manhood. And then the various programs that we had, in cutting of firetrails and other things having to do with forests. I carried that on with me later, when I went in with the Forest Service and into the Parsons nursery. I was at the Parsons nursery for 10 years. And a lot of the things I learned at the CCC camp I carried along with me.

Senator RANDOLPH. And you feel that you were given a real stimulus to carry forward an active career because of the training in the CCC program?

Mr. HEHLE. Yes.

Senator RANDOLPH. You learned to work better yourself and to work better with others. Is that true?

Mr. HEHLE. That is right.

Senator RANDOLPH. Sheriff Hehle, before leaving the stand: You are a businessman. You are a public official. Do you feel that a program such as we contemplate, if this legislation is enacted into. law, is worth the investment of the dollars to the taxpayers of this country that would be invested into such an effort?

Mr. HEHLE. Very much so, sir.

Senator RANDOLPH. You feel, as a taxpayer that a dollar spent in this sort of an effort is a dollar well spent?

Mr. HEHLE. Very much so.

Senator RANDOLPH. You base that upon your experience in public life and in business? You feel that Government in certain areas has responsibilities; that people working through Government can best carry forward a program of this type; otherwise perhaps the program does not come into fruition?

Mr. HEHLE. Yes, sir. I think that any money that is spent toward this program, such a program as this that you will get twice fold back for it, because it is going to help to preserve our forests that we have now. When you build fire trails, you are going to protect them; also when you build telephone lines, fire towers, fix up your watersheds. The big thing, though, is to get these boys off of the streets that have nothing to do. You are not necessarily taking all the rough element off of the streets. You are going to get some good boys, that have no advantage, no way of going to college, nothing to do; because when you go into employment today, a young boy right out of high school has no experience. And the first thing that is asked of that boy, when he goes asking for employment is: Do you have any experience? They want somebody with experience. And that boy consequently has no way of making a living. And something like this would give him an opportunity to learn something about reforesta

tion, where he could learn something about machinery, and at the same time he will be earning something.

Senator RANDOLPH. Sheriff Hehle, your cemment, both on your experience in the CCC program and your estimate of this proposal, based on your later years in business and public life, is appreciated. We are grateful that you have come here from West Virginia to give us the advantage of your testimony. I wish the record to show the debt that men and women generally owe to dedicated public servants such as I know you to be.

Thank you.

Mr. HEHLE. Thank you, sir.

Senator RANDOLPH. Mr. Gatlin?

Mr. Gatlin, we are very happy that you have come before the committee this afternoon. Please give your name and the position that you hold with the organization for which you speak.

STATEMENT OF CURTIS GATLIN, FIELD STAFF, NATIONAL CHILD LABOR COMMITTEE

Mr. GATLIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am Curtis Gatlin, field staff member of the National Child Labor Committee of New York City.

Mr. Chairman, I have a prepared statement and would like, with your permission, to use that for my presentation.

Senator RANDOLPH. Yes. You may give your testimony in the way you desire.

Mr. GATLIN. Thank you.

I am very pleased to speak on behalf of the National Child Labor Committee on proposed legislation to establish a Youth Conservation Corps, introduced by Senator Hubert Humphrey and his associates, including you, Mr. Chairman, as well as Senator Javits from my own State, New York.

The National Child Labor Committee is a nonprofit social welfare agency founded in 1904 and incorporated by act of Congress in 1907. It is a member of the National Social Welfare Assembly, and an associate group of the National Conference on Social Welfare. Policies are determined by a board of distinguished men and women in social welfare, education, medicine, and law, industry, religion, labor and finance. Financial support comes primarily from contributions of members throughout the country.

Today, this day, about 5,000 boys and girls will quit school-on the basis of the yearly average. This is true every schoolday of the year in our country. The total for 1958 was about 900,000 high school dropouts.

Though many of these youngsters leave school to go to work, they will not get work easily. And neither do additional thousands of high school graduates who each year look for their first full-time jobs. The Census Bureau estimates that in March there were 541,000 16- to 19-year-olds unemployed and seeking work. The rate of unemployment of youth in the labor market at any stage of the business cycle is twice that of the national average for other workers in our country. Though sincere in his desire to work, the younger worker usually loses out in the competition for jobs in a market already saturated with

older, more skilled workers. The problem of youth unemployment in America is very serious-especially to those young people who hear so often: "Sorry, no job that you can do."

The National Child Labor Committee concentrates on this complex situation. Though not suggested by our name, a major focus of our attention for more than a decade has been upon encouraging communities across the country to find better ways to prepare more of our youth for successful entry at the proper time into suitable work.

We have a deep concern with the numerous difficulties youth face in finding, getting, and holding worthwhile jobs-particularly such disadvantaged youth as those of minority groups, low-income families, and migratory farm families, as well as school dropouts, and youngsters with court records. The National Child Labor Committee is intensely interested, therefore, in ways of opening up more job opportunities for young workers and in ways of helping the prospective young worker better prepare himself for suitable life work. For these reasons we are very much interested in the proposal for the development of youth conservation camps.

Recently our board carefully considered a proposal of one of its members, Dr. Robert C. Taber, director of pupil personnel and counseling, Philadelphia Public Schools, for the establishment of youth development camps on an experimental basis. Such camps would supplement public school education for certain types of boys and girls in a residential camp offering both educational and work opportunities. They would provide broad trade training, as well as work in nature conservation, and there would be vocational and personal counseling services for the youth enrolled. The board of NCLC endorsed in principle the purposes and aims of the youth development camps. Although it has not yet taken official action on the specific bill under consideration here, the bill is sufficiently comparable in purpose and approach to suggest similar approval.

Our experiences over the years in working with communities, schools, and various other youth-serving groups who seek to encourage the development of better counseling and job placement programs for young people prompt us to offer a few observations regarding the Youth Conservation Corps proposal. We like the idea of the plan because it aims to help take up the slack in youth employment, particularly in time of business recession. We also like the inclusion of special educational work for enrollees (10 hours per week) and wish to accent this.

However, it would be unfortunate, indeed, if youth leaving the program found themselves no better equipped to enter a permanent job than before enrolling in it. This need not be, and we sincerely urge special attention be given the educational program, with particular emphasis placed upon provision of good counseling and guidance services. This work camp experience could give youth an opportunity to learn new skills, develop good work habits, and better prepare themselves for permanent jobs.

It is most important to resist the temptation to try to use this new program for juvenile delinquency rehabilitation. While all of us would like to think that the youth conservation camps might actually have a positive effect in helping certain boys develop a greater measure of self-awareness and self-assurance that would enable them to