And then follow the penalties provided there.

With reference to the cases you cited, which, in your opinion, held that Congress has authority to prevent these men from making a combination to leave their employment for a year, have you any specific authority, other than what you inferred from the general language of the courts, that directly holds, as a regulation of commerce, Congress has authority to forbid them to agree among themselves to leave their employment at the same time?

Mr. WHEELER. I think the cases already cited and discussed show that.

We all know from the history of our country that dueling was a common practice in many of our States. I can remember when dueling was common in some of the States. But the laws prohibit it, and it is out of date. I do not expect to live long enough to see the time, but I do hope the time will come when strikes will also be prohibited, just as dueling is now prohibited. Dueling was a sort of private war; so is the strike-Debs himself says so.

Senator BRANDEGEE. In regard to the general question we have just been discussing, under the power to regulate commerce among the several States, has Congress the power to prevent employees from leaving their employment during the period of arbitration and conciliation and also for an indefinite period thereafter? If, furthermore, Congress has the power to prohibit that for a period of 30 days thereafter, why has it not the power to prohibit it indefinitely, forever? It seems to me you have confused the two propositions. I may be wrong about it. I do not say I am right, but you say that when men enter a public service of this kind they may be prohibited from leaving that service; then, on the other hand, you think Congress ought to prohibit them in that connection as a regulation of interstate commerce. Which of those theories do you think should apply?

Mr. WHEELER. Those are harmonious. They are like twins. For example, my ability to go into a train in Jersey City and come right through on a railroad to this city, or vice versa, is a matter which Congress has authorized under the power to regulate interstate commerce granted by the Constitution of the United States. If I have a parcel which I wish to send, I have the ability to send it over the same route or over any other interstate route. What is important in my case is also vastly more important in the case of these gentlemen who were here yesterday. They were men who feed and clothe the Nation, and they are vitally interested in the facilities of transportation from State to State. Congress has passed a great many laws to facilitate that. The first was legislation to allow connecting lines. When first I came to Washington there was no through line. You had either to cross a ferry at Camden or else be drawn by a horse car through the city of Philadelphia to get on the train for Washington. There was also a similar situation at Erie, Pa. There was no through line there. There was a riot there when the railroads undertook to inaugurate a through service, because this was an attempt to run through their city, where a large number of persons did a profitable business in transferring, and they did not want to give up that business.

The point is that interstate commerce must be facilitated, and Congress has the power to facilitate it. Anything that is necessary to bring about that result is, as I have shown by the authorities I read, within the power of this legislative body. There is the case of McCulloch v. Maryland (4 Wheat., 316, 421), in which it was held—

Let the end be legitimate, let it be within the scope of the Constitution, and all means which are appropriate, which are plainly adapted to that end, which are not prohibited, but consist with the letter and spirit of the Constitution, are constitutional.

Senator BRANDEGEE. I agree with you in that, but I am also not sure that while we have plenary power to regulate commerce among the States we have plenary power to say to labor unions that they shall not strike for a given time.

Mr. WHEELER. Oh, they are a part of commerce. These gentlemen here are just as much a part of commerce as a railroad president.

Senator BRANDEGEE. They are not a commodity.

Mr. WHEELER. They are not a commodity, no; neither are the railroad managers a commodity; but they are an esential part of the transportation system which transports commodities and deserve to be treated with the greatest consideration. I am not advocating anything burdensome to them, but would have them treated with absolute justice, and believe in having a tribunal to do that justice.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you propose to have resort to reason instead of force in the settlement of all domestic disputes, just as we are now contending should be accomplished in international affairs?

Mr. WHEELER. Precisely.

Senator BRANDEGEE. You claim also, I suppose, that this prohibition against a strike as defined in this bill is not a violation of the constitutional provision which prevents involuntary servitude?

Mr. WHEELER. I do. It does not prevent any individual from leaving the service. It is expressly so reserved in the bill. I do not know that it is any part of the duty of a witness to speak of legislation, but I may be pardoned, as an old lawyer, if I say that I think the bill makes this very clear.

Senator BRANDEGEE. If you could have your way, you would go further than the bill, would you not?

Mr. WHEELER. I would not now. I do not think it is wise to hurry things too much. It is a matter of progress.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Your remarks yesterday led me to infer that the industrial board should have more power.

Mr. WHEELER. Once they get into the business of arbitration under the Newlands Act they should have the power to make the rules necessary to enforce the act. What I have suggested is only a step further.

The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions of Mr. Wheeler, we will hear from Mr. Chambers.

Mr. CowLES. May I make a remark before you proceed, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Mr. CowLES. I want to say that when I submit my statement in behalf of the bill it will be in regard to the bill to authorize the

President of the United States in certain emergencies to take possession of railroads, telephone, and telegraph lines, and for other purposes. I shall represent two or three or four million voters at the least. I think there are some of those voters who will desire to be heard on the proposition, and some of them may desire to be heard to-morrow, if it is possible.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Mr. Wheeler, just one more question before Mr. Chambers proceeds. Senator Underwood has a bill here substantially clothing the Interstate Commerce Commission with authority to determine these controverted questions between the railroads and their employes, as to hours of labor and also as to labor. Congress has authority to fix the wages, you think?

Mr. WHEELER. I have no doubt about that. I can not see any distinction between fixing rates on the one side and fixing wages on the other. It was an old admiralty rule that freight is the mother of wages. It is just as true of interstate commerce.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Do you prefer this bill to the Underwood proposition to clothe the Interstate Commerce Commission with authority to determine these questions?

Mr. WHEELER. Well, I am not prepared to say. I think that is a very interesting subject and one requiring very careful consideration. We would all agree. I am sure, that if the power is to be given the Interstate Commerce Commission their numbers would have to be increased, and they would have to be authorized to sit in divisions. because they are now crowded with work; and if you are going to give them any more work to do, you will have to make provision for handling it. They could not handle it under the present conditions. Senator BRANDEGEE. I know that, certainly. But the point I want to make is this: What do you think, as a matter of public policy, of having such a tribunal to fix wages?

Mr. WHEELER. My impression, Mr. Chairman and Senators, is that it would be a wise thing. I have studied this subject very carefully. I know there are two sides to it, and much may be said on either side; but my impression is that it would be wise to give the same commission that fixes rates the power to fix wages. They are really inseparable. They have been separated in form, but not in substance. I would unite them under one jurisdiction. When I read that amendment last August I thought it a very wise measure. The great point of it all is to give us peace, and that bill we have been considering this morning will be a great step in that direction.

The CHAIRMAN. We realize the great inconvenience to the public, the loss and the suffering occasioned by a tie-up of transportation. If we should not stay the power of strike during this period of investigation and for a certain period after it is concluded, the maintenance of the public peace, and the maintenance of the operation of the trains against any disorderly forces that may arise, either in or cutside of the labor organizations, is important.

Mr. WHEELER. Oh, very well.

The CHAIRMAN. We have on the statute books a law which makes it a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine of $500 or by imprisonment for six months, to obstruct the mails. What is your judgment with reference to a similar provision of law regarding the willful obstruction of trains operating in interstate commerce?

Mr. WHEELER. I think the power is identical.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you think about the advisability of such action?

Mr. WHEELER. I think it would be wise to extend that existing statute to cover this case.

The CHAIRMAN. You are aware, are you not, that frequently these strikes assume proportions that are entirely outside of the organizations themselves?

Mr. WHEELER. That is one objection to them.

The CHAIRMAN. The vicious element will use these conditions as an opportunity to resort to violence-violence against the stations, violence with reference to the operation of trains, etc.

Mr. WHEELER. That is one of the greatest dangers.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you think is advisable with reference to that situation?

Mr. WHEELER. I do think it would be advisable to amend the statute you refer to, which is, I think, recorded in the brief I referred to yesterday, so as to cover the situation you suggest.

The CHAIRMAN. I will state to the committee that I have received a communication from the Chamber of Commerce of the United States, containing a form of referendum upon this question, which they have presented to their associated chambers throughout the United States, and also the message of the President of the United States to Congress upon the subject of labor legislation; also a letter from the secretary of the Chamber of Commerce of the United States of America. If there is no objection these papers will be incorporated in the record. The message of the President calling attention to the subject of labor legislation will also appear at the beginning of yesterday's proceedings.

(The papers referred to are here printed in full, as follows:)

[Dec. 16, 1916.]

CHAMBER OF COMMERCE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

REFERENDUM NO. 19 ON THE REPORT OF THE RAILROAD COMMITTEE ON THE PREVENTION OF STRIKES AND LOCKOUTS.

National headquarters, Riggs Building, Washington, D. C.

BY-LAWS ARTICLE X-SUBMISSION OF QUESTIONS.

SECTION 1. All subjects considered or acted upon by this chamber will be national in character.

SEC. 2. All propositions, resolutions, or questions, except those which involve points of order or matters of personal privilege, shall be submitted for action in writing only by the organization members, or by the council or board of directors, provided that by consent of two-thirds of the delegates present at a meeting a subject not so presented may be considered.

SEC. 3 (first consideration). An organization member desiring to present a subject for the consideration of this chamber shall commit its proposal to writing and forward it to the general secretary.

It shall be the duty of the general secretary to bring this question before the board of directors by mail or telegraph, or at its first meeting, whereupon the directors shall order the question printed with such arguments as may be presented by the proposing member, unless it be the opinion of said board that the question is not of national importance. If the board of directors decide that a question submitted by an organization member is not of national character and should not therefore be sent to the membership for consideration, the proposing member may appeal from the decision of the board to the national council at any meeting of that body, or by mail through the office of the general secretary. If the national council decides by a majority vote that the

question should be referred to the membership it shall be incumbent on the board of directors to order its submission.

In ordering the question printed the directors shall determine the length of the statement which may be submitted with it by the proposing member. The printed question and brief shall be transmitted to each member of this chamber as soon as practicable, and simultaneously the general secretary shall mail a copy to the national councillor representing each organization member.

The question shall be accompanied by a notice from the general secretary that each organization member is expected to express its opinion on the question in writing and mail said opinion to reach the national headquarters within 45 days. In returning said opinion each organization member shall also register a preliminary or test vote on the subject. It may cast one such vote for each delegate to which it is entitled in the annual meeting. No vote shall be valid unless received by the general secretary within 45 days of the date of the mailing of the question.

In forwarding the question it shall be the duty of the general secretary to advise each organization member of the date on which the right to register votes expires.

SEC. 4 (immediate action). If before the expiration of 45 days from the date the question and brief were sent out votes representing more than twothirds of the voting strength of the organization membership are registered in favor of the proposition, the general secretary shall immediately certify that fact to the board of directors. Thereupon, the question shall be recorded as having been approved by the chamber and it shall be the duty of the board of directors to take such steps as may be necessary to make effective the action taken.

If at the expiration of 45 days one-third of the voting strength of the chamber has been recorded and two-thirds of the vote thus cast representing at least 20 States is in favor of the proposal the general secretary shall so certify to the board of directors. Thereupon the question shall be recorded as having been passed and it shall be the duty of the board to make the action effective. SEC. 5 (further consideration). If the question has failed to receive the votes necessary as set forth in the preceding section, but has received the approval of more than one-third of the votes cast it shall be sent out for further consideration under the following conditions:

(a) The opinions received from the various organization members shall be put in type and referred to the proposing member, said member shall have an opportunity to consider them and to add a final argument in support of its project, of such length as the board of directors shall prescribe.

(b) All of these opinions shall be assembled in a printed pamphlet, a copy of which shall be forwarded to each organization member and to each national councilor.

(c) On receipt of the pamphlet it shall be the duty of each organization member to consider the whole project in the light of the opinions expressed in all parts of the country, and to register a definite vote on the proposition within 45 days of the date of mailing of pamphlet. One vote may be cast for each delegate to which the member is entitled in the annual meeting.

If the question shall be approved on this submission under the same terms as in section 4 of this article, it shall be certified to the board of directors as having passed and action by the board shall follow.

SEC. 6 (reference to annual meeting). If on second consideration by mail, as herein provided for, a question shall fail to receive the vote necessary for its passage, but shall have received one-third of the votes cast, it shall be placed upon the program for consideration and action at the next annual meeting.

SEC. 7. Upon approval by the council or board of directors a member may be permitted by petition to place upon the program for consideration at the annual meeting a question which has not been submitted in advance by mail as hereinbefore provided for, but such a question shall not be considered if one-third of the delegates present object thereto, and its submission by mail as hereinbefore provided for shall be ordered on the recording of a two-thirds vote in favor of that method of procedure.

SEC. 8. On all questions before a meeting of this chamber on which a vote is taken viva voce, or by division, each duly accredited delegate from an organization member shall be entitled to one vote in person. A yea-and-nay vote may be ordered on any question upon demand of one-fourth of the delegates present officially representing such organization members, and on such ballot only the votes of said members shall be counted. On all yea-and-nay votes each organization member shall be entitled to as many votes as there are delegates present