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directly from the president of that organization. As far as the factories are concerned, I was only permitted to visit one factory.

Mr. COCKRAN. Was this statement as to there being two men generally employed at each place based on your observation or your information ?

Mr. FAULKNER. It was based on both my observation and my information.

Mr. COCKRAN. What information? I ask because I should like to verify that.

Mr. FAULKNER. Information from the president of the organization.

Mr. COCKRAN. Would you mind telling me who he was?
Mr. FAULKNER. Mr. Edmund Gilles-G-i-1-1-e-s.
Mr. COCKRAN. Where, in Belgium ?
Mr. FAULKNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. COCKRAN. Where in Belgium?
Mr. FAULKNER. Charleroi.

Mr. COCKRAN. A Mr. Gilles, of Charleroi, informed you that two men were employed at each of these places, as a general thing, all the time?

Mr. FAULKNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cockran. They were constantly employed !
Mr. FAULKNER. I believe so.

Mr. COCKRAN. Did they divide that wage evenly, or was one a principal workman and the other a helper?

Mr. FAULKNER. As to that, in all instances, I can not say; I do not know.

Mr. COCKRAN. You see, of course, how important that is to your testimony.

Mr. FAULKNER. But the fact remains, just the same, that there is that much for that place. There is that much for that amount of glass.

Mr. COCKRAN. Yes; but you can see that if one man was the principal workman and the other was the helper, and the first man obtained $60 of the $80, we will say, he was as well paid as the American workman.

Mr. FAULKNER. I can not see it that way.

Mr. COCKRAN. If you take a piece of paper and work it out, I think you will find that 12 times 60 or 6 times 120 would make 720. That is, 12 times 60 would make the exact equivalent of 6 times 120. Mr. FAULKNER. So far as the blower is concerned; yes, sir.

Mr. COCKRAN. Yes. That is the blower. We will go on now to the others. The next is the gatherer. The American gatherer gets $90.25 for about the same period of employment, I suppose, does he not?

Mr. FAULKNER. Just about.

Mr. COCKRAN. That is, for about half time; and the foreigner gets $40 or $50 for the whole time. He is about as well paid, is he not, in the amount of money that he finally receives at the end of a year?

Mr. FAULKNER. Perhaps so.

Mr. COCKRAN. I will not ask you to go further than that on this comparison, but I ask your attention now to this tariff of which you are so eloquent an advocate.

Mr. FAULKNER. Here is the point I want to bring out: There is a lot of glass coming into this country that is being made over there at a cheaper rate than we can possibly make it over here, and it is interfering with the market in this country to such an extent that the window-glass workers of this country, if they were given all of that market, could have about three weeks more work each year.

Mr. COCKRAN. Three weeks more?
Mr. FAULKNER. About three weeks more, I think. Now--

Mr. COCKRAN. Wait a minute; we will just take that. Three weeks more, you say. If the time were increased to the rate that you suggest, there would be three weeks more work for these various skilled workers?

Mr. FAULKNER. Provided it would work out that that was sufficient to keep out this foreign glass.

Mr. COCKRAN. Yes; that is it. How much would that increased tax amount to, do you think?

Mr. FAULKNER. What do you mean?
Mr. COCKRAN. I mean how much do you advocate raising the tariff!

Mr. FAULKNER. I am not making any suggestion of that kind now. I plainly stated that I would like to file a supplemental brief, for the reason that we have not had time to secure the necessary data to present figures here to you. I am simply presenting a statement, and expect to be permitted to present a supplemental brief later on. I believe I stated that fact very clearly.

Mr. COCKRAN. Mr. Faulkner, there has been a very high rate of tariff here, has there not?

Mr. FAULKNER. Not high enough.

Mr. COCKRAN. Not high enough, I am sure, to meet the view of the employers. But with the tariff such as it is the men that you represent are in the condition that they get now about $720 a year--the best of them?

Mr. FAULKNER. That is, the highest paid.
Mr. COCKRAX. Yes, the very highest paid.
Mr. FAULKNER. And the other half do not get anything.

Mr. COCKRAN. Yes; that is it. What has become, do you think, of this tariff which has been levied in the past? Has it reached the workingman?

Mr. FAULKNER. Do you speak of the revenue? It is pretty hard to tell what has become of the revenue, if that is what you mean.

Mr. COCKRAN. I am speaking of the difference.
Mr. FAULKNER. Do you mean the revenue?

Mr. COCKRAN. No; the revenue, I think we will agree, goes to the Treasury, such as it is.

Mr. FAULKNER. Yes.

Mr. COCKRAN. But I mean the increased price which the consumer pays to the manufacturer or to the employer. That has not reached the workingman, according to your figures, has it?

Mr. FAULKNER. Not of late years.

Mr. COCKRAN. Not of late years? What do you suppose has become of it? You would think that the employer, who was a kind of trustee of the community for the collection of this additional rate beyond the value of his product, to distribute it among his laborers, has proved to be faithless to his trust.

Mr. FAULKNER. I will tell you,

Mr. COCKRAN. Answer that, will you?
Mr. FAULKNER. I will tell you what I think has become of it.
Mr. COCKRAN. No; will you not answer that question ?
Mr. FAULKNER. Yes; I will.

Mr. COCKRAN. You would think that the trustee—the employeron that theory

Mr. FAULKNER. I do not want to seem unfair.
Mr. COCKRAN. No.

Mr. FAULKNER. I do not want to antagonize anyone; but I will tell you what I think has become of it.

Mr. COCKRAN. All right.

Mr. FAULKNER. I think it went into the expense of perfecting a window-glass blowing machine, in two ways: Part of it was the expense to the machine companies, and the other part was an expense that was brought on the hand operators of this country in meeting ruinous prices, until they have gotten to such a stage that they are now really fighting each other.

Mr. COCKRAN. Who are fighting each other?

Mr. FAULKNER. The machine interests and the hand interests. That is, part of our men are employed in the machine plants and part in the hand plants.

Mr. COCKRAN. Would it be your idea of the halcyon condition to have a state of production where machinery was entirely excluded ?

Mr. FAULKNER. Oh, yes; but that is impossible. We can not stop the march of progress. We are not trying to do that.

Mr. COCKRAN. No; now, you understand that the theory of this tariff

Mr. FAULKNER. Will you let me finish that? You asked me a question, and I have not finished answering it yet.

Mr. COCKRAN. I thought you had finished.

Mr. FAULKNER. This condition that has been brought about has been of very recent years, and we feel that it has about reached the limit. We feel that from this time on there will be a better condition, because there will be less expense attached to the manufacture of window glass, the machine interests will not have such a great expense, and I do not believe the competition will be so lively. That will give the hand operators a better opportunity to sell their product at perhaps a better price, and there will not be so many factories in the sheriff's hands, perhaps. I do not believe that condition will continue, but I believe the new condition that I have just spoken of will be brought about. Mr. COCKRAN. Are you through? Mr. FAULKNER. That is all.

Mr. COCKRAN. Your belief is, of course, very valuable; but the grounds of your belief would be more important to us, for then we could tell whether we share them or not. I understand that we agree that whatever became of this difference between the value of the product and the amount that was charged for it under the tariff, it did not reach the workingman? We have agreed on that; have we not?

Mr. FAULKNER. No, sir; we have not.

Mr. COCKRAN. I thought you said that it was spent in perfecting a machine to get rid of the workingman.

Mr. FAULKNER. It is a question how much they should receive and how much they did receive.

Mr. COCKRAN. You are talking of one thing and I am asking you about another. Let me see if I can get your attention to an historical fact, not a speculative discussion. There has been a large amount of money collected from the consumers of this country under this tariff over and beyond the price that the article would command in the market if it were not for the tariff, has there not?

Mr. FAULKNER. You mean the selling price of glass?
Mr. COCKRAN. Yes.
Mr. FAULKNER. When do you speak of—the last few years?

Mr. COCKRAN. We will start from the adoption of this tariff law in 1897.

Mr. FAULKNER. I would answer “no, sir.”
Mr. COCKRAN. Then the tariff did not operate at all?
Mr. FAULKNER. Yes; it did.
Mr. COCKRAN. IIow did it operate?

Mr. FAULKNER. In a way it served its purpose, and in a way it did not go quite far enough, for the reason that your low brackets were not high enough; they did not prevent this country from becoming a dumping ground for small sizes of poor qualities of foreign glass. It keeps out the large glass all right to a certain extent, to perhaps a safe extent; but not the smaller stuff which they are very anxious to get rid of. And I want to make this point: If they could not get rid of that small stuff over there, they could not make quite so much of their larger stuff. There would not be quite so many employed over here, and there would be more pay.

Mr. COCKRAN. All of which is very interesting; but now let me come back to the question I asked you: A certain amount of money has been added to the cost price of this article through the tariff, has it not?

Mr. FAULKNER. Certainly.

Mr. Cockran. Very good. The difference between the amount at which this article would have sold without any tariff and the amount actually collected did not reach the workingman, as I understand

you?

Mr. FAULKNER. Do you mean the amount that accrued from the sale of the glass?

Mr. OCKRAN. I refer to the difference between the amount that would have accrued from it without a tariff and the amourt actually collected, which is the amount represented by the protection of the tariff law. Did that amount reach the day laborer?

Mr. FAULKNER. I am very free to say that it did up to a certain point, perhaps two years ago.

Mr. COCKRAN. And two years ago it stopped. How was it stopped two years ago?

Mr. FAULKNER. As to that, you will have to ask the manufacturers.

Mr. COCKRAN. You have undertaken to speak about it yourself. If you can not tell us, it is the easiest thing in the world to say so.

Mr. FAULKNER. I believe we got our share of it.
Mr. COCKRAN. What share?

Mr. FAULKNER. But I do not believe the manufacturer got any price for his product. I believe we got all that he could afford to

pay us for the last two years, and perhaps more than was really justly our share, considering the price that he was able to obtain for his product.

Mr. COCKRAN. Granting the entire excellence of the manufacturer, please tell us what proportion of it you got, if you can.

Mr. FAULKNER. Our proportion of that is based upon our wage scale.

Mr. COCKRAN. Will you tell me whether it is 10 per cent, 20 per cent, 30 per cent, 40 per cent, 90 per cent, or 100 per cent?

Mr. FAULKNER. What per cent of what?

Mr. COCKRAN. Of the amount levied on the consumer over and above the amount that the article would have sold for without the duty.

Mr. FAULKNER. Do you mean the selling price of the glass?

Mr. COCKRAN. No; I do not. Do you understand the operation of the tariff law? You are here urging us to increase it.

Mr. FAULKNER. I understand the effect of it upon the workingman.

Mr. COCKRAN. You do not understand that, you say?

Mr. FAULKNER. I do understand the effect of it upon the workingman, but you do not seem to understand it.

Mr. COCKRAN. It can only operate on the workingman through its effect on the market.

Mr. FAULKNER. That is it.

Mr. COCKRAN. Very good—upon the amount, in other words, that it enables the employer to realize. The employer gets the price of the product first, does he not?

Mr. FAULKNER. What does the employer have to do with the glass that does not come to this country?

Mr. COCKRAN. If you will answer my question, I will answer yours afterwards.

Mr. FAULKNER. I am answering the question in that way.
Mr. COCKRAN. You are not answering it at all.
Mr. FAULKNER. That is my way of answering it.
Mr. COCKRAN. Why are you asking for an increased tariff?

Mr. FAULKNER. Because I want to keep that small glass out of this country.

Mr. COCKRAN. How will it be kept out?

Mr. FAULKNER. Because I do not believe they could compete with us. I do not believe they could afford to pay that price, that increased tariff rate, and compete with our American manufacturers.

Mr. COCKRAN. Very well. Now let us see if we can start from that. You will keep it out by enabling the American producer to charge a higher price in this market. That is it, is it not?

Mr. FAULKNER. I hope to.
Mr. Cockran. That is your object here!

Mr. FAULKNER. That is one of the objects, and the other is to enable him to make that small stuff. The principal object is to enable him to make that small glass.

Mr. COCKRAN. He will not make it except to sell it, will he?

Mr. FAULKNER. He will not make any more small glass than he can sell if he can possibly help it. This will give him a greater opportunity to make that glass which he can safely cut into small sizes. It is not a question of his raising the price to the consumer; it is a

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