Mr. FORDNEY. Whom do you represent?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I represent myself, I represent the National Forest Conservation League, and I believe I represent the sentiment of a great many people.

Mr. FORDNEY. What is the National Forest Conservation League that you represent?

Mr. KNAPPEN. It consists very largely of myself.

Mr. FORDNEY. That is what I thought. [Laughter.]

Mr. KNAPPEN. I started in and organized the league a month ago, because I saw that this subject was coming up and I thought there would be the same criticism that has already appeared, that the consumers would not be represented.

Mr. FORDNEY. You tried to induce me to join the league?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I wrote to every Congressman.

Mr. FORDNEY. You say that the coast conditions would not be affected by removing the tariff, and you say that some of the manufacturers are now making $10 a thousand profit?

Mr. KNAPPEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. FORDNEY. Where is there a concern on the coast making $10 a thousand profit?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I can not name any concern on the coast now.

Mr. FORDNEY. I do not think anybody else can. Do you know anybody who can?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I did not say that there were concerns on the coast. Mr. FORDNEY. Did you not state that they were making $10 profit now?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I did say that in California I believed there was certain timber that could at the present time be sold at a profit of $10. Mr. FORDNEY. You are making a speech before a committee which is to act upon this matter, and what you believe and what you know are two different things.

Mr. KNAPPEN. That is quite right and for that reason I cited practical lumbermen to back me up in some of these things.

Mr. FORDNEY. Did you not state that American lumber was selling cheaper in Canada than here?

Mr. KNAPPEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. FORDNEY. Can you name a firm who is doing that or a single shipment?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I will call a witness who will do that.

Mr. FORDNEY. All right. You say that the removal of the duty will conserve the forests of the United States?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I think it will lessen the drain.

Mr. FORDNEY. What kind of lumber comes in competition with American lumber, high or low grade?

Mr. KNAPPEN. Both.

Mr. FORDNEY. Is it not true that the bulk of the lumber which comes in competition with the American lumber from Canada is lowgrade lumber?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I believe it is.

Mr. FORDNEY. Is it not true that high-grade lumber has a market anywhere in the world, either from Canada or the United States, a better market than the low grade?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I believe that is so.

Mr. FORDNEY. What percentage of the product of the log is low grade?

Mr. KNAPPEN. Twenty per cent.

Mr. FORDNEY. Is it not 40 per cent?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I was interested in manufacturing a year ago.
Mr. FORDNEY. Have you ever manufactured lumber?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I have not.

Mr. FORDNEY. Then I would take my own judgment in preference

to yours.

Mr. KNAPPEN. I wish you would ask that question of some of the gentlemen who will appear in support of my contention.

Mr. FORDNEY. Is it not true that Canada is seeking a market in the United States for low-grade lumber?

Mr. KNAPPEN. Certainly; as well as other lumber.

Mr. FORDNEY. If low-grade foreign lumber came into our markets and reduced the price, do you not know that it would not have a tendency to conserve the forests, but that the American lumberman would also be obliged to leave a little higher-grade lumber in the woods than he does now?

Mr. KNAPPEN. That would depend on how much came in. I do not believe that the low-grade lumber coming in would have any effect on the situation.

Mr. FORDNEY. It did from 1893 to 1896.

Mr. KNAPPEN. I think that condition was owing to the great business depression.

Mr. FORDNEY. It was certainly confusing to the manufacturer. I was in the business then.

Mr. KNAPPEN. I think it is hard to draw inferences from statistics. Mr. FORDNEY. If 40 per cent of the Canadian product is low grade and Canada can find a good market for her better grades-and she is looking to the United States for a dumping ground for those low grades--if those low grades are brought into competition with the lumber in the United States it would not have a tendency to compel the lumbermen of the United States to leave in the woods their low grades?

Mr. KNAPPEN. That is your opinion as a lumberman.

Mr. FORDNEY. I have been in the lumber business ever since I was a boy and I know what I am talking about.

Mr. KNAPPEN. Not being a lumberman, I can not undertake to dispute your statement on that subject. I would like to have you discuss that question with the practical men.

Mr. FORDNEY. I will discuss that question with any man on earth and flay him in a minute. [Laughter.]

Do you know what price the lumbermen are getting for their lumber at the mill where they are manufacturing it in the South; Mississippi, for instance?

Mr. KNAPPEN. No, sir.

Mr. FORDNEY. Do you know whether they are making a profit or whether they are selling the lumber at a loss?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I suppose they are selling it at a profit. I can not state from knowledge of actual mill figures.

Mr. FORDNEY. I am in the manufacturing business in the South, in the State of Mississippi, and I know that lumber is selling at the mill, the product of the log, all grades, for less than $13 a thousand.

How much do you think the manufacturer makes out of that? Do you know what it costs to manufacture in the South?

Mr. KNAPPEN. No; I do not.

Mr. FORDNEY. Then you are not competent to judge whether the Southerner is making any money or not.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think you should follow that line of examination, Mr. Fordney.

Mr. FORDNEY. The witness has made a positive statement here, Mr. Chairman, that reflects upon the lumber business. He is in favor of removing the duty, and I want to know where he gets his informa

tion.

The CHAIRMAN. But you stated that the witness was not competent. It is all right to show that by your questions, but I do not think your opinion should go into the hearing.

Mr. KNAPPEN. As a rule, I quoted my authority.

Mr. FORDNEY. You stated that there were three concerns in the United States which control one-third of the timber in the United States.

Mr. KNAPPEN. That is an estimate; yes, sir.

Mr. FORDNEY. What firms are they?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I had in mind the Weyerhaeuser group, the T. B. Walker group, and the C. A. Smith group.

Mr. FORDNEY. Their holdings are all on the Pacific coast, practically, are they not?

Mr. KNAPPEN. No; I think they have large holdings elsewhere. Mr. FORDNEY. Do you know how many acres of land or how many mills those three firms own?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I made a rough calculation from data gathered from other lumbermen, and that made up a total of about one-third of fourteen hundred billion feet, which is the minimum estimate of lumber in the United States.

Mr. FORDNEY. Did you take it from any Government report?
Mr. KNAPPEN. There is none available.

Mr. FORDNEY. I saw a statement made by a gentleman who is supposed to represent the Government which stated that Weyerhaeuser owned 32,000,000 acres in the State of Washington. Do you know anything about the correctness of that statement?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I do not. I should say it was incorrect. I do not think it is that much.

Mr. FORDNEY. Do you think there is that much timber in the whole State?

Mr. KNAPPEN. The area of Washington is about 77,000 square miles, is it not?

Mr. FORDNEY. That I do not know.

Mr. KNAPPEN. That would only figure up somewhere between forty and fifty million acres in the whole State. I do not think 32,000 acres of that is good forest land.

Mr. FORDNEY. No. You stated that you had learned that the consumption of timber in forest products was about 50,000,000,000 feet annually; where did you get that estimate?

Mr. KNAPPEN. From the official bulletins of the Department of Agriculture, the Forestry Service.

Mr. FORDNEY. It is my information that there are less than 50,000,000.000 feet.

Mr. KNAPPEN. Are you speaking now of the entire wood products? Mr. FORDNEY. All kinds of forest products.

Mr. KNAPPEN. You know the official statistics show over 40,000,000,000 feet for 1907 of lumber alone. It would seem as if the other wood products would amount to more than the 10,000,000,000 feet. Mr. FORDNEY. I think that is wrong. You stated that the condition on the Pacific coast-in Oregon and Washington, as I take it-was affected by the rise in freight rates?

Mr. KNAPPEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. FORDNEY. Is it not true that there has been no rise in freight rates in the last two years?

Mr. KNAPPEN. No; I do not think that is true.

Mr. FORDNEY. The railroad companies threatened to raise the rates, but they did not do it.

Mr. KNAPPEN. They issued the order and then there was a long period of litigation.

Mr. FORDNEY. What is the rate from the Pacific coast to the Mississippi Valley now?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I believe it was 45 cents. That has been changed in some way by a railroad technicality which I do not exactly understand. They have changed the limit of distances on that rate, or perhaps a similar rate which has been substituted for it. That exact matter can be easily cleared up by other witnesses here.

Mr. FORDNEY. You quoted Mr. Long as a manufacturer and as one being in favor of the removal of the duty on lumber?

Mr. KNAPPEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. FORDNEY. What Mr. Long do you refer to?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I think it is Mr. Long, of Kansas City.

Mr. FORDNEY. He is a Democrat and free trader?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I do not know whether he is a Democrat or not, but he is not a free trader on lumber.

Mr. FORDNEY. He is a free trader on lumber?

Mr. KNAPPEN. No. In the paper from which I quoted he distinctly argues against the repeal of the lumber duties.

Mr. CLARK. Mr. Long is a very large dealer in lumber?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I believe he is. I am not very well informed as to that.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. About as good as the average Republican? [Laughter.]

Mr. KNAPPEN. I guess so.

Mr. FORDNEY. Is it not true that the lumberman in the United States has the greatest difficulty in finding a market at a reasonable price for his low-grade lumber?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I understand that is the fact.

Mr. FORDNEY. He has an open market for his high grades and gets a fair price for them?

Mr. KNAPPEN. Yes, sir.

M. FORDNEY. With free trade with Canada and Mexico, his greatest difficulty would be still further increased by more competition in the low grades and not any high grades?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I think the competition would also be increased in high-grade lumber.

Mr. FORDNEY. I know from experience that the western coast lumberman right now leaves 25 per cent of the product of the forest

in the woods because the grade is so low that there is no profit in it to market it, and if you bring the Canadian cheap-grade lumber into competition that he will be compelled to leave a greater portion in the woods.

Mr. KNAPPEN. I understand that lumbering in British Columbia is carried on under very much the same conditions as in Washington, and what you say of the Washington lumberman leaving 25 per cent in the woods would also apply to the British Columbia lumberman. My understanding is so far as the low grades are concerned, that there is no great fear of the importation of low grades of British Columbia lumber.

Mr. FORDNEY. You have stated the difference regarding the increase of foreign shipments between the United States and Canada, and that it was greater in proportion from the United States than from Canada. Is that not due to the fact that Canada can not find a market for her low grades of lumber and that therefore her industry has not thrived as the industry has in the United States?

Mr. KNAPPEN. The figures I quoted referred only to British Columbia, and therefore they eliminate the low-grade item very largely. Mr. FORDNEY. It applies to British Columbia?

Mr. KNAPPEN. Please repeat your question.

Mr. FORDNEY. You stated that the increase of shipments, both from Canada and the United States, was so much-you have given the amount-and stated that the increase from the United States was greater than that from British Columbia, as we will call it? Mr. KNAPPEN. Yes.

Mr. FORDNEY. Is not that due to the fact that British Columbia has no protective tariff now as to low grades, and for that reason her production has not increased, as compared with the increase of the United States?

Mr. KNAPPEN. I do not think so. British Columbia at present does not produce a very large amount of lumber altogether. The cut in British Columbia last year was 475,000,000 feet, and in normal times there is a rattling good market in the rapidly populating prairie provinces which, I should say, is keeping ahead of the production in British Columbia.

Mr. FORDNEY. Don't you think that by removing the duty on the lower grade she would enjoy a better market in the United States than she does now?

Mr. KNAPPEN. As I said before, the conditions of production being similar in Washington and British Columbia, as you pointed out. I do not think it enters into the calculation, as they waste 25 per cent in the woods.

Mr. FORDNEY. Do you think they would leave it in the woods? Mr. KNAPPEN. I think they would, just as the Washington lumbermen do.

Mr. FORDNEY. That is all.

Mr. BOUTELL. You stated, Mr. Knappen, with some degree of confidence on your part that the repeal of this duty would benefit to some degree the consumer?

Mr. KNAPPEN. Yes.

Mr. BOUTELL. Whom do you hold to be the consumer?
Mr. KNAPPEN. The buyer of lumber.