Mr. CLARK. How would it bring you in competition with them, then?

Mr. TIFT. Simply because the market for our timber is not in Georgia.

Mr. CLARK. Part of it is in Georgia.

Mr. TIFT. Only a small portion of our lumber is sold in Georgia. Mr. CLARK. You do not ship in lumber from the outside that you use in Georgia?

Mr. TIFT. No; but we ship our Georgia lumber into markets north of the Ohio River, into New England, New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and West Virginia, and all through that territory.

Mr. CLARK. What do they burn those woods off for?

Mr. TIFT. Well, they do it because their daddies have done it; they do it so as to get early range for the cattle. At least that is what they say.

Mr. CLARK. Does it hurt the trees to burn the woods in that way? Mr. TIFT. Yes; it does.

Mr. CLARK. Does the fire burn the trees?

Mr. TIFT. Yes; there are millions of feet of lumber burned up every year.

Mr. CLARK. Mostly dead trees?

Mr. TIFT. Not only dead trees. It kills the trees with leaves on

them.

Mr. CLARK. Do you have any grass like timothy or clover that you do not have to sow every year-perennial grasses?

Mr. TIFT. We have the Georgia wire grass.

Mr. CLARK. Is that good pasture grass?

Mr. TIFT. It is pretty fair pasture grass; yes.

Mr. CLARK. Is that what they burn that off for?

Mr. TIFT. They burn the woods off so as to bring that grass up a little earlier.

Mr. CLARK. You follow the same plan they used to follow on the prairies?

Mr. TIFT. We lumbermen do not; it is the farmers, the country people, that do that.

Mr. CLARK. They do not burn anybody's trees except their own, do they?

Mr. TIFT. They burn that whole country, and a regiment of soldiers could not stop it, in my opinion.

Mr. FORDNEY. The timber burns more rapidly after being turpentined, does it not?

Mr. TIFT. Yes, sir. Those fires do not injure virgin timber very much, but they burn a considerable portion of all the timber that is boxed.

The CHAIRMAN. After it is turpentined you use it for lumber?
Mr. TIFT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You have got an advantage by reason of using the turpentine as a by-product.

Mr. TIFT. The lumbermen do not get the benefit of that.

The CHAIRMAN. You take it out for amusement?

Mr. TIFT. No; we take the timber after the turpentine men get through with it.

Mr. HILL. You say you want to find an outlet for your low grades of lumber?

Mr. TIFT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. Your market is largely Sound ports, is it not?
Mr. TIFT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. And you ship by water?

Mr. TIFT. Yes, sir. That brings out one feature of our business that I would like to call to the attention of the committee.

Mr. HILL. One moment before you go into that. I would like to inquire what you sold common roofers for last year?

Mr. TIFT. We have not a roofer grade.

Mr. HILL. It is about the lowest there is, is it not?

Mr. TIFT. It is equivalent to our No. 2

Mr. HILL. Coarse common. In 1907, what was the price, delivered in Sound ports?

Mr. TIFT. A grade equivalent to roofers-we do not ship a roofer grade

Mr. HILL. Did you not get from $18 to $20 a thousand for it?
Mr. TIFT. No, sir.

Mr. HILL. That is what they paid up there.

Mr. TIFT. At what point, sir?

Mr. HILL. How low did you sell that twelve years ago or fifteen years ago?

The CHAIRMAN. Which one?

Mr. HILL. The same grade.

Mr. TIFT. I hardly know what to say as to roofer grade, because that is not a grade in yellow pine. I understand it is equivalent to our No. 2 common grade.

Mr. HILL. Very coarse, knotty boards.

Mr. TIFT. Eight inches and upward?

Mr. HILL. Yes; and tongued and grooved.

Mr. TIFT. The price of that kind to-day is $10. Last year-
Mr. HILL. What do you mean; delivered at Sound ports?
Mr. TIFT. I am speaking f. o. b., mill prices.

Mr. HILL. What do you pay Sound ports?

Mr. TIFT. My mill is a railroad mill, 130 miles from Brunswick, Our rate is $4 a thousand. The average freight rate to New York will be from $5 to $6.50, depending on conditions. The rates now, for the last year, I think, run from $4.50 to $5. It goes up as high as $7 some seasons.

Mr. HILL. That would make it about $20 delivered. What did you sell them at twenty years ago?

Mr. TIFT. About twenty years ago we did not make any.

Mr. HILL. Oh, yes; I bought them myself.

Mr. TIFT. You mean in the yellow-pine district?
Mr. HILL. North Carolina.

We are just now We regard it as Under the present

Mr. TIFT. Roofers is particularly a North Carolina product. Our yellow pine goes into a different working lumber. beginning to make some roofers in yellow pine. No. 2 common-No. 2 common, or roofing boards. market they are worth $10. A year ago the same grade of lumber would have brought about $5 more.

Mr. HILL. That would make it about $23 delivered up there?

Mr. TIFT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. You do not sell it as low as $12 delivered пр there?
The CHAIRMAN. He said ten, I think.

Mr. HILL. No; I mean mill price.

Mr. TIFT. I never shipped any there myself. I could not say on my own knowledge.

Speaking in regard to the necessity for getting all of the output from a given body of lumber, perhaps if I give you an experience it will illustrate the point I want to make.

I commenced sawing lumber in Tifton in 1872. That was before we had dry kilns or planing mills. We simply manufactured then practically hard lumber. Everything that did not make hard lumber was left in the woods. We would cut down our trees and leave the tops, and the stumps, and our average output in 1872 was from 2,000 to 2,500 feet. Since that time we have put in dry kilns, planing mills, shingle mills, and lath mills, and have endeavored in every possible way to extend our market to increase our product from our timber. The same timber that was cutting 2,000 feet to 2,500 feet to the acre in 1872 will cut now with the market we have about 10,000 feet to the acre. That is the point I wish to call to your attention

Mr. RANDELL. There are immense forests and all sorts of timber in Mexico that would compete with your southern timber if the tariff were removed?

Mr. TIFT. Yes. I think there is no question of that.

Mr. RANDELL. And they are very easily accessible to the East and that lumber can be delivered at Gulf ports and Atlantic ports?

Mr. TIFT. I am not very familiar with the situation, except that I understand that there are large bodies of good pine timber in Mexico, and I presume it is available to the ports. I am also advised

Mr. RANDELL. And that could reach the Gulf ports and Atlantic ports and compete with the southern lumber, and of course that could reach the ports they have in Texas and be available for building material all through the western territory, all through the western prairie country, could it not?

Mr. TIFT. Yes, sir. And that timber could also be shipped in foreign bottoms to eastern markets at a freight rate very little above the freight rate that prevails as to coast wise vessels.

I want to say a word as to delivering our shipments from Georgia and Florida ports into New York. Those shipments employ a very large number of American coasting vessels; not only employ a large number of coasting sailing vessels, but furnish a very large amount of freight to coastwise steamers.

Now, if that volume of business is to be turned over to Canada and Nova Scotia and Mexico that volume of lumber would be moved in foreign bottoms; so that instead of serving our coastwise trade, as well as increasing our merchant marine, the effect of transferring this business from Georgia and Florida to Canada would be to transfer the carriage of this lumber from American vessels to foreign vessels. I think that is a matter that ought to be considered in that connection. I think it has been stated during this meeting that the revenue derived from Georgia lumber is about $3,000,000. I think it has also been stated that the labor conditions in British Columbia and Canada were possibly about the same as in this country, and the inference was that it would cost as much to make lumber in Canada as it would cost to make lumber in this country, and that therefore we

need not fear the importation of lumber from Canada, Nova Scotia, and the British provinces.

But that brings me back to the question of the disposition of the low-grade products. We are trying to extend our markets in the East and in the West. That product with the tariff off would come in from Nova Scotia and Canada into the eastern market at New York, and as a business proposition it would drive us out of those markets, or put us where we could not compete. They would get into New York on quicker time and lower freight.

Mr. FORDNEY. You believe in the general principle of protection to American industry?

Mr. TIFT. Yes.

Mr. FORDNEY. You do not want your industry taxed at the expense of all others, do you?

Mr. TIFT. No, sir.

Mr. FORDNEY. Therefore you want a $2 duty retained in order to let you compete in markets with your neighbor instead of the Canadians?

Mr. TIFT. Yes, sir; and not only that

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, answer the question. Do not go on with a speech.

Mr. FORDNEY. The gentleman is trying to answer, and I am satisfied with his answer. Go ahead and answer.

Mr. TIFT. I simply wish to say that as a reason for not wanting the tariff changed we did not wish to change the present business conditions. If the tariff is changed in any respect, we have to adjust our conditions. We want to get down to a basis where we can get along.

STATEMENT OF J. D. LACEY, OF CHICAGO, ILL.

Mr. LACEY. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I am interested in the lumber business to an extent, but more particularly in the land end of the business.

I heard a great many questions asked to-day in reference to the stumpage part of the business and the general timber industry of the country, and also as to the tariff in relation to Canadian lumber.

I have been in this timber business for about thirty years, in all parts of the Atlantic States and Canada, and in South and Central America. So I have given that a pretty careful investigation, both as to quality and quantity, and also with reference to the tariff from time to time, as it has come up.

I have been in the southern lumber business since 1890, in Georgetown, S. C. I have been in the short-leaf pine and cypress business.

During the Wilson bill we lost money on our lumber, on account of the low price for low-grade stock. The first four years we were in business we did not make any money. Since then we have made a fair profit. We have paid a dividend of from 6 to 10 per cent a year.

But while there has been a moderate profit on the lumber manufactured, in the same locality there has been an increase of several hundred per cent in the value of the stumpage itself, and the whole question to-day, in the increased cost of lumber, resolves itself down to the increased value of stumpage and the increased value of labor. And when I say labor I mean not only the labor that enters into the

wages to our employees, but labor that enters into the wheat and corn and oats and everything that the lumbermen buy.

There has been a great deal of talk to-day about saving to the farmer, that the price of lumber was too high for the farmer. But I have not heard anyone say that wages should be cut down. If the price of lumber is too high, there is only one way to reduce it, and that is to reduce wages. You can not reduce the price of stumpage, because more stumpage is owned by more people probably than any other industry in the country.

It is the general idea that the holdings are in a few hands, but that is a very erroneous impression. There are thousands and thousands of individual owners.

My business has been in the West for the last twelve years, to consolidate the homesteader and the timber claims into larger business, to make them more valuable for operating purposes.

The same way in the South and other sections of the United States. So I am probably as familiar with the holdings of timber land as any man in the United States to-day, and I know while there are very many large institutions and a great many individuals holding large bodies of timber there are also a great many holdings in the hands of individuals which are small holdings a great many individuals have small holdings.

If you reduce the duty on lumber, you must reduce the duty on other things to make wages lower, to bring the price of lumber below what it is. I do not think you will ever see the price of stumpage lower than it is. I have been watching it. I have been in the business ever since I was a boy, forty years ago. I knew something about it when I was a boy in Pennsylvania, and then I went from there to Michigan, and I know that you could buy the best lands there from $2.50 to $5 an acre. From Michigan I went to Missouri. In Missouri in 1880 we bought timber land at 50 cents an acre; in fact, it sold as low as 30 cents an acre.

Then, as the stumpage in Michigan increased in value, the lumber industry of the South developed and stumpage value increased. Then, as the stumpage in the South grew in value, the coast timbers came in the market and the values of stumpage on the coast advanced. Now, in Canada, the custom there is entirely different from what it is in our country. The government there leases the land on from five to twenty-one year leases. It is sold at auction to the highest bidder. A large percentage of those government leases to-day are owned by individuals, just the same as the timber is owned here, and I have known leases to sell as high as a thousand dollars.

Ordinarily, though, the price of Canadian stumpage is very much less than our American stumpage.

In eastern Canada the price pro rata is a little less than it is in the South. In portions of British Columbia it is less. In other portions it is higher. While in some localities in Canada labor is practically equal to the United States, in other localities it is considerably less. Particularly is that so in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Quebec. That is the section that more particularly affects the East than any other section of Canada. We get that to New England in competition with our low-grade stock, and we get it by canal by the St. Lawrence River.