Mr. KELLEY. Mr. Morton?

Mr. MORTON. Mr. Secretary, on page 6 of your testimony you talked about the amendments to this bill which you suggest in regard to penalties. Unless there is some penalty for violations, it is rather meaningless. I agree with your basic philosophy there. How do you feel as to penalties as they affect the individual miner who might be smoking on the job or lax as to timbering, and so forth and so on? This problem of mine safety, as I see it, is a two-way street. You can pass all the laws you want to and close the mines down, but you have to do an educational campaign to get the cooperation of the men in the mines. Of course it is to their interest to follow the rules because theirs are the lives involved. So many of these accidents are as our chairman has pointed out, from roof falls and things of that kind. Sometimes a man will just knock out a piece of shoring because he can handle his loading machine a little better when it is not there, and sometimes he goes behind a rib to smoke a cigarette. In our talk of penalties in this bill should we approve penalties on anyone who goes in the mine and violates safety regulations as well as for the operator himself?

Secretary CHAPMAN. Let's look at it this way: In the first place, the law of self-preservation would obviously operate very strongly against the man trying to murder himself, just like a pilot flying a plane. The passengers don't have to worry about somebody being foolish with the pilot, because the pilot's life is at stake just as well as the passengers'. In this case it is only the miner's life that is at stake, not the operator's.

Mr. MORTON. The point is, though, that we know that planes have been grounded where the life of the pilot only was involved. It happened during the war repeatedly that pilots in the Air Force or Naval Air Wing were grounded for taking a foolhardy chance where no life was involved but their own.

Secretary CHAPMAN. Surely.

Mr. MORTON. The facts are, it seems to me, that to develop the teamwork that is necessary for safety we have got to be sure that one man, through repeated thoughtlessness or through lack of understanding the seriousness of what he is doing, does not jeopardize not only his own life but those of his fellow workers. I just don't know whether we can write anything into this bill pertaining to that important subject, but something must be done. It is hard to legislate safety, just as it is hard to legislate morals.

Secretary CHAPMAN. It is not easy.

Mr. MORTON. If we could sit up here and pass a law that would allow your Bureau of Mines to anticipate the development of methane gas in any given mine, we would have the problem licked.

Secretary CHAPMAN. If that was the only problem we had.

Mr. MORTON. We cannot legislate that kind of clairvoyance to any bureau. My thinking was that we do still have that problem of carelessness, if you will. The chairman has pointed out that 60 or 70 percent of our accidents that are either fatal or involve serious injury. result from roof falls, not from the explosions that we read about, which of course tear at the heartstrings of all Americans and all Members of Congress. I was wondering if any thought had been given to the idea that, where we can't through educational processes

get safety cooperation from those who go into the mines, penalties would then apply.

Secretary CHAPMAN. I think you will get cooperation fully of the men in a case like this. I don't anticipate certainly any reluctance on their part to comply with the required regulations. People who have given 93,000 lives of their own people to keep this industry alive and going certainly should not at this moment have the question raised about whether they should put a penalty on them now for being killed. I want to catch up with the other side for a while.

Mr. MORTON. The penalty is not for being killed. The penalty is to prevent a man from endangering his own life and the lives of others. Secretary CHAPMAN. Until we catch up with the other side, I would like to leave that go for a little while. Let's balance this thing off a while and then we can discuss that when we see how it works out for a few years.

Mr. MORTON. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. KELLEY. Mr. Vail.

Mr. VAIL. Mr. Secretary, the prime interest in mine safety lies in the mine workers themselves, does it not?

Secretary CHAPMAN. That is right.

Mr. VAIL. Then how do you account for the adamant opposition of the Progressive Mine Workers to this legislation?

Secretary CHAPMAN. I don't think the mine workers are opposed to this legislation.

Mr. VAIL. My understanding is that they have taken very definite issue with it.

I will have to wait until they testify to that effect at this hearing before I would believe that the miners would oppose this kind of legislation.

Mr. KELLEY. Would the gentleman yield? The mine workers themselves are for this legislation, the United Mine Workers.

Mr. VAIL. The Progressive Mine Workers.

Secretary CHAPMAN. I can't understand why they would be that way unless they have some kind of interunion political contest going

on

Mr. VAIL. You were aware of the fact that they are opposing the

measure.

Secretary CHAPMAN. No; I wasn't. I wasn't aware of the fact that they opposed it. I can't imagine anybody opposing the interests of his own men. It is inconceivable to me that a group of men like that would oppose a safety device for the safety of their own men working in the mines.

Mr. VAIL. It is also inconceivable to me, and I wondered if you had the answer to it

Secretary CHAPMAN. I don't have the answer at all. I wish I knew why they would do that.

Mr. VAIL. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. McCONNELL. Mr. Secretary, you have stated some recommendations that were made by the Federal inspectors in the case of Orient and Carpentertown mines.

Secretary CHAPMAN. That is right.

Mr. McCONNELL. Are all those recommendations included in your testimony?

Secretary CHAPMAN. I am going to submit the report, as I said. I will submit it for the record.

Mr. KELLEY. Without objection, that will be received.

Secretary CHAPMAN. I will be happy to put that full report in the record on both of them.

(The reports referred to are not printed here but were filed with the committee and are available for reference.) Mr. McCONNELL. I would like to ask you What caused the explosion in the Orient mine? you know?

one more question. What set it off; do

Secretary CHAPMAN. No. I only know what the report gave me from my technical people. They thought it was caused probably by an arc, some spark from the electrically operated equipment in an area where there was too much methane gas.

Mr. McCONNELL. In other words, no one knows what caused it? Secretary CHAPMAN. Yes; they think they know..

Mr. McCONNELL. They think.

Secretary CHAPMAN. I say they think. They state it. They state it in the report.

Mr. McCONNELL. Do they state that it was so-and-so as a fact, or do they say they think it?

Secretary CHAPMAN. They didn't say, "I think." They just make a statement of facts as to the cause.

Mr. McCONNELL. I don't know. I haven't read it.

Secretary CHAPMAN. That is the way they present it, in those terms. Mr. McCONNELL. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. LUCAS. Mr. Chairman, I have a question.

Mr. Secretary, if this bill is enacted into law how much do you estimate it will cost the taxpayers of the United States the first year?

Secretary CHAPMAN. I don't happen to have those figures available with me, but we do have those figures. I would like to put it in the record for you, if you don't mind.

Mr. LUCAS. Do you know approximately how much it will cost. Secretary CHAPMAN. No, I don't. Mr. Forbes, do you have those figures?

Mr. FORBES. About $6 million more than is now being spent for Federal coal-mine inspection activities.

Secretary CHAPMAN. About $6 million more than at present.

Mr. LUCAS. That is the first year. Do you know how much it will cost the second year, or do you have any estimate of how much it will cost? Is it estimated that cost will increase as more mines are opened? Secretary CHAPMAN. They have an estimate, Mr. Chairman, on this, and I would like to submit that for the record. They have a prepared estimate on the cost of this. I don't happen to have it in my mind.

(The estimate referred to is as follows:)

Mr. KELLEY. Mr. Secretary, I wart to thank you for coming here, and I want to commend you for your interest as Secretary of the Interior in this matter because it is very important when you are dealing with the lives and limbs of the men engaged in this industry. Thank you very much.

Secretary CHAPMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. KELLEY. Mr. Forbes, the Director of the Bureau of Mines.

STATEMENT OF JOHN J. FORBES, DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF MINES, ACCOMPANIED BY M. J. ANKENY, CHIEF, COAL MINE INSPECTION BRANCH, WASHINGTON, D. C.; JAMES WESTFIELD, CHIEF, ACCIDENT PREVENTION AND HEALTH DIVISION, REGION 8, PITTSBURGH, PA.; AND DONALD G. WELSH, CHIEF COUNSEL, BUREAU OF MINES, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

Mr. FORBES. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I have somewhat an extended statement, and I am not going to burden you with all of the details at this time. It is available for you to read. I do want to hit the high spots of those parts of the statement which I prefer to emphasize.

I also have here Mr. M. J. Arkeny, Chief of our Coal Mine Inspection Branch, Washington office, and Mr. James Westfield, Chief of the Accident Prevention and Health Division in region 8, with headquarters at Pittsburgh, Pa. Both these gentlemen participated in the recovery operations and also in the investigation of the Orient No. 2 disaster, and Mr. Westfield participated in the recovery operations and the conduct of the investigation at Carpentertown. With your permission I would like to have them here with me, Mr. Chair

man.

Mr. KELLEY. Without objection, that is satisfactory.

Mr. FORBES. My name is John J. Forbes, and I am Director of the Bureau of Mines, Department of the Interior.

I have been an employee of the Bureau of Mines for 37 years. Prior thereto I worked in coal mines as a laborer, mining engineer, and safety inspector. I was graduated from the Pennsylvania State College in 1911, with the degree of bachelor of science in mining engineering. During my employment with the Bureau of Mines I inspected mines and engaged in safety educational work in virtually every coal- and ore-producing region in the United States. I participated in rescue, recovery, and investigations following numerous mine disasters, many of which involved heavy loss of life. I supervised the field work of the Bureau's Safety Division for 17 years; assisted in establishing the Federal coal mine inspection, and investigation work under Public Law 49, Seventy-seventh Congress, and served as the first Chief of the Bureau's mine inspection activities. On May 1, 1948, I was appointed Chief of the Bureau's Health and Safety Division and served in that capacity until November 15, 1951, when I assumed my present duties as Director of the Bureau of Mines.

My extensive experience in mine safety work has convinced me that the present methods of enforcing safety regulations in coal mines are inadequate. State laws, in many instances, are antiquated or inadequate or are improperly enforced. The terrible recurrent coal-mine disasters testify to the need of a reasonable, modern, safety code that is adequately enforced. At this time I wish to go on record as favoring H. R. 268 with amendments proposed by the Secretary of the Interior in his report on that bill, dated February 13, 1952, filed with this committee.

Mr. Chairman, all of the committee members may not be well acquainted with Federal coal-mine inspection activities; therefore I will describe the work, the qualifications of the Federal inspectors, what has been accomplished since enactment of Public Law 49, Seventy-seventh Congress, and present some observations as to what remains to be done.

There are portions of my testimony which I thought would be best not to read now.

Mr. KELLEY. Do you wish to include it in the record?

Mr. FORBES. I want it all included in the record, Mr. Chairman. Mr. KELLEY. Without objection, it is so ordered.

Mr. FORBES. The reason I included some of this information in here is that during the Senate hearings there were some very derogatory statements made with reference to our Federal code and I want to put this in to give this committee first-class information on our Federal inspectors:

The qualifications of the Federal coal-mine inspectors are prescribed
Mr. KELLEY. Where are you going to read?

Mr. FORBES. That is on page No. 3, Congressman--

in section 9 of Public Law 49 and by the United States Civil Service Regulations In other words, all our men are subject to a competitive examination under the civil-service rules and regulations, and if they are successful in passing the examination they are put on the Federal register. Our men are taken from that Federal register.

There are certain stipulations laid down by the Civil Service Commission with respect to qualification of our people. That is enumerated pretty generally on pages 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and on page 8 I want to call attention to this:

Applicants must be physically capable of performing efficiently the arduous duties of the position of Federal coal mine inspector.

Citizenship: Applicants must be citizens of or owe allegiance to the United States and must not have passed their forty-eighth birthday on the date of filing application. The age limit does not apply to persons entitled to veterans prefer

ence.

On page 10 is given the result of a recently completed survey of the experience of our inspectors, and I want to include it in the record for the benefit of this committee. I am going to read the "experience of Federal coal mine inspectors.' I just recently completed the survey:

The presently employed Federal coal mine inspectors have had an average of 19.8 years of experience in coal mines before being employed by the Bureau of Mines, and 12.5 of these years represent experience in supervisory capacities in the industry. That experience in supervisory capacity I would say means practically all jobs from fire boss up to and including mine superintendent and sometimes general manager. Their average experience as Federal coal mine inspectors is 5.5 years.