MR. MALINS said, the right hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Walpole) had characterized his argument against the establishment of the proposed Court as "weak." If there were any weakness apparent in it, that weakness was fully compensated by the strong words used in the Report of the Committee that sat upon this subject in 1856, of which Committee the rht hon. Member was himself Chairman. That Report stated that the Committee "Had come to a conclusion adverse to the creation on the landed interest, but did not hold purchaser. But let not the conveyancer, out sufficient public advantages. Landed as it was proposed he should do, decide in proprietors would undoubtedly be able to favour of the present against the absent, transfer their estates by a species of state for it would be impossible to fathom the conveyancing, and to facilitate the speedy noxious results of such a system. With retransfer of land he did not at all grudge spect to the theory advanced by the right the boon to the landed interest. But why hon. Member for Cambridge University, as should not creditors who had lent their to the probable proceedings of colonists, money on land, and who had obtained the they would, no doubt, become as desirous power to sell, be enabled to apply to the as their forefathers of providing for their Court for a judicial title, so as to enable posterity. Settlements would, as a matter them to realize on their securities the of course, be made, and all the peculiarihighest marketable price? If this were ties of our legal system would, as a natural not provided for it would seem fair that consequence, result; the theory of the right the landed interest, who alone received hon. Member, therefore, was not tenable benefits, should alone pay the expenses of in the slightest degree. The Irish Inthe Court, and that they should not be cumbered Estates Court had been much made a charge upon the public. eulogised, and it had been said that that Court had committed no errors. Errors of this kind, however, did not disclose themselves at once, and that Court had been established only seven years. What might the next seven bring forth? Seven years was a very short time by which to test the utility of an establishment which had to deal with such a question as the title to land. He believed it impossible that the two or three Irish Commissioners presiding over that Court could personally, without the assistance of conveyancers, have investigated the number of titles that had passed through their hands. They were not to assume, because many mistakes had not yet been discovered in the working of the system in Ireland, that they ought to decide against persons in their absence, or against the It objected, also, to the want of proper pro- rights of the unborn and unknown. He vision for the protection of beneficial in- could not acquiesce in the practical utility terests and trusts, which would not be pro- of the proposed system of" cautions" or tected against wrongful acts by registered" inhibitions" which the Solicitor General owners. The right hon. Gentleman said, had promulgated. As illustrations of the the principle of the Court was as old as the imperfections of the system, he might sugsystem of fine and nonclaim; but why go gest the following instances: - A B reback to a system which had been abolished gisters an estate on the 1st of Janury, 1860, in the time of William IV., because of its as owner; he could then sell that estate; injustice? In the event of such a Court a month afterwards, CD puts a caution being established, however, he agreed with or inhibition upon the register. "Then,' the last speaker as to the duties of those said the Solicitor General, " you must get who would necessarily preside, and he ap- CD to withdraw it." But if CD put proved of the amended title, "judicial con- it there, he would not withdraw it merely veyancers," given to them by the hon. and upon being asked to do so; he put it there learned Solicitor General. He, however, because he had some interest in the land, disapproved now, as he had always done, and would not remove it unless his claim of the extensive powers proposed to be was satisfied. [SOLICITOR GENERAL: Hear, given to those judicial conveyancers. Let hear!] That claim would have to be inthem report that a good title existed; let vestigated. Other cautions might follow, that report, however, not preclude any per- rendering necessary further investigation, son whe could prove the conveyancer wrong and though you might commence with a from appealing to a superior jurisdiction, simple title, the multiplicity of cautions that and let the Court guarantee that title to a might follow, would render the system im of a tribunal with the power of deciding on titles to land. The object might be good where estates were much embarrassed, but the same principle was hardly applicable in another state of society, in which there was not the same necessity of a change of ownership." " practicable. Again, every man before he took so important a step as the purchase of an estate, consulted his legal adviser, and certainly, before he moved the machinery of such a Court as that proposed, he would equally consult his solicitor to advise him upon the title of the estate-a title to which he proposed to obtain from the Court and so he would have to go through the same course before he went to the Court that the Court would have to go through afterwards. On the whole, he felt convinced the measure would not answer the expectations of his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor General (Sir H. Cairns). He would, however, conclude by withdrawing his Motion. MR. CARDWELL said, that if the ancient strongholds of English law in regard to conveyancing could be sustained, he was sure that they would be by the persevering zeal of the hon. and learned Member for Wallingford. One would imagine from the observations of the hon. and learned Member that settlements and family dispositions were wholly unknown in the case of stock in the funds and personal property; but so far was that from being the fact, that all those provisions for a man's wife and family, the importance of which the hon. and learned Gentleman urged with so much eloquence, were made every day by means of funded property, unincumbered by any of those difficulties which had rendered the law of landed property in this country a byword and a reproach. The transfer of funded property was effected with ease and the question was whether the same principles could not be applied to land. It was said, indeed, that there was a difference in the nature of the property, but a further question then arose, whether that was a sufficient answer. They had the advantage of experience on the subject. For ten years there had been in operation a Court which had dealt with landed property with signal success upon the same principle which applied to funded property, and although the hon. and learned Gentleman said that it had been in operation for too short a period to be conclusive in its results, it had, at all events, led to more than £20,000,000 being invested in the purchase of land, a channel into which money could not formerly find its way, owing to the complexity of the details, and the general difficulty of the subject. The establishment of that Court had done more almost than any Act of Parliament which had been passed in our time for the regeneration of society in Ireland; and that was his answer, founded upon practical experience, to the technical difficulties raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman. Then, with respect to mortgages and those charges which were supposed to attach only to land, and which were to be the subject of caveat; it was now about five years since a system had been adopted with respect to ships, involving remarkable minuteness, owing to charges of this kind-and property in ships could now be conveyed, ships could be mortgaged, and even migratory powers of mortgaging could be given. This also had been long enough in practice to afford evidence of its beneficial working, and he contended, therefore, that both reason and experience vindicated the change which was now proposed. It had been asked what necessity there was for resorting to a Court of Record when a man could always clear his title. The answer was obvious. When a man had once gone to the expense and labour of clearing his title he did not desire to go to that expense again for another cause. If a person had a large estate, and was desirous of selling it in small portions, it might be essential for carrying on that operation, where the title was once cleared, to have some public record of the fact, because the expense of doing it in each case might be so great as to be prohibitory. Again, there was a growing and very natural desire among all persons in this country who by industry and economy amassed a little money, to invest their savings in actual landed property, and land could not be set free for the purpose of those small investments until some means were established by which, like funded and other property, it might pass easily from hand to hand. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had given an illustration from the Colonies, upon which the hon. and learned Member for Wallingford remarked, "But suppose the colonists say, We will have settlements and arrangements like those of the mother country, and therefore we will return to the old system of conveyancing.' He (Mr. Cardwell) had no doubt that they would have settlements in every British colony, but he believed that they would be made in the same way with regard to land as in the case of stock in the funds. That colony would certainly be a curiosity in history which should carry its loyalty and love of the institutions of the mother country so far as not to be satisfied without adopt Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to. THE SOLICITOR GENERAL said, he did not propose to proceed any further that evening, either with that Bill or the next on the paper, than the first Clause that involved the principle of the measure. House resumed. Committee report progress. SUPPLY.-NAVY ESTIMATES. ing all the perplexities and embarrassments | nearly £300,000,000; and yet now they which were associated with landed property were told that they had only twenty-nine in this country. He (Mr. Cardwell) shared efficient ships of the line, and that their in the universal applause which had been navy was inferior to that of France. This bestowed upon the hon. and learned Solici- arose from great neglect and mismanagetor General for this measure, and he cor ment in naval affairs. There could be no dially congratulated him on having had the proper investigation of these Estimates in privilege of introducing to the House of a Committee of the whole House, for the Commons what he believed would be one Votes were passed so rapidly that there of the greatest and most beneficial changes was hardly time to turn from one Vote to ever made in the law of this country. another before they were passed. The other night, when the House went into Committee, he went to fetch his copy of the Estimates, and before he returned, in about a minute, four important Votes were passed; and upon one of them he had intended to take the opinion of the Committee. On the other hand, a Select Committee could deliberately investigate the Votes. He did not intend the Committee to be appointed in the usual way-in which case the Government would of course have a majority in it-but to be selected by the Speaker, and to consist of only five Members. Such a Committee as he proposed could finish their labours in ten or twelve days, so that there would be no delay in considering the Estimates. The right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty had made an able speech on the subject of the Navy Estimates, but without being acquainted with all the facts, and had obtained his information from various departments where the red tape system more or less prevailed. These Estimates were double what they were in former years. When the right hon. Member for Carlisle (Sir James Graham) was at the head of the Admiralty he reduced the Estimates to £4,500,000, without impairing the efficiency of the navy. The expenditure remained at that point for about seven years, but it had gradually increased since, and the Estimates for the present year amounted to the enormous sum of £9,800,000 odd, exclusive of an addition of something like £1,000,000 for the proposed increase of the navy. It was admitted that the French had as large a navy as we had, and yet their Estimates last year amounted to little more than £5,000,000. He found from the report of the auditors of public accounts that there was an expenditure of 800,000 more than was voted, and that in the case of stores there was an expenditure of £600,000 more than was voted. If the House would not inquire into this useless and wasteful expenditure, it was useless to bring them forward in separate Votes. The econo MR. W. WILLIAMS said, he rose to move that these Estimates be referred to a Select Committee. He wished to advert for a moment to the cause of the merriment which he had created the other night, no doubt by his being too late to get to his place. The House was so full that there was no seat vacant. He had consequently to go into the gallery. He hastened down when the House went into Committee; but being unable to find a seat, he attempted to address them from another part of the House, which he understood was contrary to etiquette. He thought that a very strong case for granting the Committee for which he moved had been made out by the noble Lord the Member for Sandwich (Lord C. Paget) when he said that, out of an expenditure of £19,000,000 in eleven years there was a sum of £5,000,000 which could not be accounted for. The First Lord of the Admiralty had said that he would lay papers on the table giving an account of the expenditure or waste of the £5,000,000. He (Mr. W. Williams) had no doubt of the right hon. Gentleman's ability to do so, for it had never been suggested that the money had been disposed of in any dishonest or dishonourable way. He had gone through the Estimates since 1816, and found that since that period the astonishing sum of £281,000,000 had been voted for the navy, or, with the additional Votes, VOL. CLIII. [THIRD SERIES.] F mists of the House were charged with the | tion, in order to add the words "the Navy dilapidated state of the navy, but he did Estimates be referred to a Select Comnot think that during the last twenty years mittee," instead thereof. there had been any Motion to reduce one SIR HARRY VERNEY seconded the man from the Estimates proposed by the Go- Motion, and said, that never since he had vernment, or a reduction of 1s. in their pay. had a seat in that House had he heard The Estimates that had been voted from such an account given of the navy, and it time to time by the House were sufficient was a matter of the deepest regret, if not to secure the most efficient navy in the of shame, to find that our navy had been world. During the time of the right hon. reduced to such a state as that which had Baronet the Member for Carlisle at the been described. The right hon. GentleAdmiralty stock was taken of the various man had objected to lay on the table an stores and materials in our dockyards, estimate of the future repairs and public which ought to be done annually, and this works for each year, but was there any tended to a reduction in the Estimates, objection to doing the same as regarded and prevented useless accumulation. It the past? It would very much facilitate had been stated that several ships were the performance of the duties of the waiting to be manned, and yet last year House, in giving them an accurate acthe House had voted 59,380 men, and this count of the various sums that had been ought to have equipped an efficient Chan- expended. The right hon. Gentleman had nel fleet. He (Mr. W. Williams) had been shown the wretched condition of our navy, told by an eminent naval officer that one and especially of our dockyards; but when great cause of the want of men was the he took office he struck out of the Estisystem of flogging which still prevailed in mates 1,300 men that had been placed the navy. The right hon. Gentleman had there by his predecessors, and now he stated that there was a deficiency in the came forward and complained of a want of lower class of officers, such as mates and men and of want of efficiency in our navy. midshipmen; but looking at the higher He (the hon. Member) would support the class of officers in the navy, he found proposal for a Committee. It was not that there were 341 Admirals on pay, or against the Admiralty, or its representarather more than one Admiral and a half tives past or present, but against the system to every ship and cock boat afloat; whereas that he supported the Motion. in 1846-7 there were only 153 Admirals; in 1851-2, 232; and, in 1857-8, 316 Adirals; which caused an increase in the list of half pay to £55,000. When the right hon. Baronet the Member for Car lisle was First Lord of the Admiralty there were two Generals of Marines and six Colonels of Marines, costing £4,740; now there were thirty-four Generals of Marines and ten Colonels, all sinecures, and costing £24,000 a year. Of the Admirals, he believed that not more than four or five of them were commanding, and others held comfortable sinecures as Port Admirals. The House ought to insist on the Navy Estimates being placed on the table at the commencement of the Session, and at once referred to a Committee. There should be a fair Committee of Inquiry into the whole structure and management of this voracious department of the public service. Had this system of referring the Estimates to a Committee been adopted many millions of money would have been saved since the termination of the French war. Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Ques SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he was very much disposed to concur with the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Williams). At the same time he thought the inquiry as proposed would be rather too extensive, and that it should be confined to the salient points, and one of these points to which inquiry should be directed was, the extraordinary and unsatisfactory manner in which the Estimates were prepared and laid before the House. A Vote was taken the other night irregularly in the middle of the Army Estimates of £133,000 for an excess of expenditure in 1857-8; but was the Ilouse aware that in that year there was an expenditure over the amount of money granted by the Ilouse to the extent of £790,000 ? The sum granted was £9,172,000, aud the sum spent was £9,962,000. It was clear that Her Majesty's present Government had nothing to do with these expenses, but he did feel surprised that some of the items had not appeared in the accounts for the year 1858-9. Of course emergencies would arise, and he was not the person to quarrel with the fair discretion of the Executive; but this House had nothing to do with the Executive. All it had to do was first to vote the money, and next | country-the navy in the most efficient to see that it was properly applied. That manner, but they expected that the money was the true function of the House, and it which was voted for the purpose should be should never allow that duty to be mixed expended in the most efficient way. By up with the duties of the Executive. But the accounts which he held in his haud he would ask the House to look at Vote he found that the amount voted for the No. 10-" Naval stores for the building, navy in 1835 was £4,245,718, manned by repair, and outfit of the fleet," and observe 26,500 seamen, and that for every succeswhat had taken place under that heading sive year there had been a gradual increase, in the course of the last six years. They until for the present year it had risen to now talked of the extremely dilapidated £9,839,859, or more than 100 per cent, state of the fleet, yet during the six years with 48,000 scamen. Of course the counthe House of Commons had voted for try expected that there had been a propornaval stores alone not less a sum of money tionate increase in the force, in the num than £13,587,000. So far as voting the ber of men and the number of ships. Let money was concerned, no doubt this House them see if that were so. In 1848 the exhad done its duty; but where he must say penditure had increased from £4,245,000, it had been lax was, that after voting the in 1835, to £7,764,020; the number of money it had not looked sufficiently close to seamen was 40,500; the ships of the line see how it had been applied. What was built were, none; converted, none - total, really wanted was that a little more confi- none. Frigates built, 1; corvettes, 2; dence should be reposed in the House on tenders, 1, total-4. The next year the the part of the Executive. They should let number of seamen voted was 42,000; ships it know what was required to be done, and of the line built, none; converted, none— what they proposed doing, and then come total, again none. Frigates built, 2; cordown the next year and show that they vettes, 4; tenders, 1-total, 7. The folhad done it. He was quite sure that if a lowing year the Vote was £6,883,747, Committee were appointed who directed and the number of seamen was 40,000; their attention to the question of how the ships of the line built, none; converted, Estimates should be prepared, they might none total, again none. Here, then, render inestimable service. And he thought were three successive years during which that the recommendation which had been there was not a single case of increase in made, and which had been alluded to this the ships of the line, either built or conevening. that the Speaker should nominate verted, or addition made to the weight of a Committee at the beginning of every metal and strength of the navy. Well, Session, was a very good one. That Com- did facts like this demand inquiry or did mittee night prepare their report, and on they not? No doubt the money had been the question that it be now received, a spent; but the question was, had it been financial debate might at once ensue. Such spent to the most advantage tor the counan arrangement would, in his opinion, be a try? The first year in the period to which very good check, and conduce to a wise he had referred, that a ship had been economy. He was the last man to attempt built at all, was in 1851, but he believed to starve the public service, but he had a that even that was a 'convert." Still strong conviction that there had been a it was an addition of one ship of the line. considerable waste of the public money in In 1852 there were two ships of the line all departments, but more especially in the built; in 1853 six were converted; and department of the uavy. in 1854 five; but in ueither year was there an absolute increase. In short, it was not until the year 1854 that any great increase took place in the numerical force of the navy. Then four gun-boats were built, and thirty-eight purchased; and in 1853 eight gun-boats were built, and 100 purchased, but no ships of the line were built, and only two converted. The navy beg.n then to cut a figure in numbers, but not in power. MR. LINDSAY said, that if the hon. Member for Lambeth had moved for a Committee to inquire into the naval expenditure in the dockyards he should have voted with him. He could not, however, support the present Motion for referring the Naval Estimates to a Committee, be cause that would be to take the responsibility of the Estimates from the Executive, upon whom it ought to rest. COLONEL SYKES said, that the people of this country were lavish in their expenditure to support the natural defence of the 65 Such craft would not do for a Channel fleet; and the result was, that after doubling the Estimates, we were at this moment destitute of a sufficient Chan. |