felt confident that the principle on which we at present acted in India, of allowing the State to be regarded as the chief landlord, and granting no leases in perpetuity operated as a virtual exclusion of the European from that country, and thus deprived it of an advantage in which, in his opinion, was to be found the best, if not the only means of regenerating its people, and making them prosperous and contented.

ductive, and instead of the very question- | English in their origin, and he could not able succession duty, he suggested that therefore see why they should not be an export duty should be levied upon the meddled with. For his own part, he staple commodities of India-upon the rice of Pegu and Arracan for example, upon indigo, oil seeds, and other Native products. This advantage would arise from an export duty-that it would be paid by the wealthy foreigner instead of by the rack-rented and hard-pressed people of India. It was remarkable that the only elastic tax in India was one as to which no merit could be claimed by the Government inasmuch as all they did was to impose a duty upon it before it went into another country. The duty on opium yielded a revenue of £3,500,000, one-fifth of the whole net revenue of India, and it was rather a serious consideration to reflect that this one tax had been the means of preventing the Indian exchequer from becoming bankrupt, leaving us the alternative, either of giving up the country or of coming to the Imperial Exchequer. Here he would throw out for the consideration of the Government the propriety of abandoning the existing monopoly with regard to opium. At the present moment the Chinese were themselves cultivating this article to a very great extent. Opium was grown in the remote provinces of China, but it was of very inferior quality; at all events, the Chinese liked our opium better than their own. Now, if the monopoly were abolished, we should be able to enter into a fair competition with the producers in China, which under the present system was out of the question. It was unnecessary for him to dwell on the immorality of the opium trade, for he had spoken on this subject a few evenings ago; and by the late treaty, too, the trade had become perfectly legal. Passing from this subject, then, he would express his regret that the Government had announced their intention not to deal with any of those vicious systems of land revenue which he believed to be the main cause of all our embarrassments. He had heard it assigned with surprise as a reason for taking that course that the Natives of India were so wedded to their present system of land tenure that it would not be expedient to interfere with it. He must, however, remind their Lordships that neither the zemindaree system, which now prevailed in Bengal, nor the ryotwarree, which obtained in Madras, nor the village system, which existed in the North-Western Provinces was fifty years old; these several systems were, in fact, VOL. CLIII. [THIRD SERIES].

THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE, said that as regarded the observations which had fallen from his noble Friend (the Earl of Ellenborough) in reference to remittances alleged to be made to India to this country in connection with railways, said, that it was a mistake to suppose that the money in question was paid by the Indian Government out of Indian resources. The whole thing was, after all, a mere matter of account. Out of every million sterling which was subscribed for the construction of railways in India about £440,000 was spent for the necessary works performed in this country, the remaining £560,000 being applied, in the first place, to the payment of the interest guaranteed to the shareholders; any sum which happened to be left being devoted to the purpose of defraying the capital expenses of the Government of India. Now, if that sum of £560,000 which remained after the payment of the necessary expenses were remitted to India, an equal amount should be remitted thence to this country for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the Home Government, &c.; so that, in point of fact, the £560,000 which were retained in this country merely replaced the remittances which would otherwise have to be made from India for the expenses of the Home Government-an arrangement which he could not help regarding as extremely judicious.

LORD MONTEAGLE said, the House had a right to complain of the complicated and unintelligible manner in which the Indian accounts were presented to them. The question involved in this Bill was one of great magnitude. He could give the authority of Lord Hardinge for saying that the real danger of India was not so much in the people we had to govern as in the finances of India. It was a mistake to suppose that the difficulties of Indian finance had originated with the mutiny. That they had been greatly enhanced by 3 C

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

the mutiny he admitted; but that they had been occasioned by it he utterly denied. For a long period antecedent to that event the revenue had fallen short of the ex

66

penditure. In the twenty-two preceding years there had been £20,000,000 of deficiency and only £5,000,000 of supply, leaving a net deficiency of £15,000,000; so that the remark of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the state of Indian finance was a state of chronic deficiency" was perfectly just. To that chronic deficiency it was most difficult to apply a remedy. He did not see much prospect under existingcircumstances of greatly reducing the expenditure in India, and the noble Earl had not held out the prospect of obtaining any large increase of revenue from additional taxation. It appeared, however, that there was some hope of obtaining assistance through the medium of the support of English credit; and he might remind the House that in 1810 and 1812 the wants of India were recited in the preambles of certain Acts as a justification for the advances which in those years were made to India. He believed that the revenues of India were fully adequate to meet the interest on the debt; but what in the meantime, without assistance from England, was to become of our army, and what of our civil service in India? At the present moment the civil servants were only receiving subsistence money, or "board wages" as it might be termed, and that short payment was to be continued for a period of three months. Would they allow the army to remain unpaid? But if the Indian resources should be insufficient to pay for the Indian service, there was no choice but for this country to provide the funds or to abandon India. He wished to know when the Report of the Commission upon the Indian army would be laid upon the table.

THE EARL OF DERBY said, the Report had been received; but the Government did not wish to lay it upon the table unaccompanied by the evidence, nor before the Government had had time to decide the course they would adopt in consequence. Motion agreed to.

Thursday, April 7, 1859.

MINUTES]. PUBLIC BILLS.-1° Confirmation and Probate Act (1858) Amendment); Convict Prisons Abroad.

20 Pauper Maintenance Act Continuance; Naval Medical Supplemental Fund Society Annuities, &c. Act Continuance; Railway Tickets Transfer.

3° Tramways (Ireland); Superannuation.

THE STATE OF EUROPE AND OUR FOREIGN RELATIONS.-NOTICE. VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I beg to give notice that I shall to-morrow, on the Motion that the House do adjourn (and, if necessary, I shall move the adjournment), make some observations on the state of our Foreign Relations, and ask the Government to state, as far as may be consistent with their public duty, what is the present position in which this country stands, either as mediator or as negotiator, in regard to the discussions now going on either at Paris or elsewhere in regard to the affairs of Italy and Europe in general.

COUNTY COURT PRISONERS.
QUESTION.

MR. HUGHES said, he would beg to ask Mr. Attorney General what steps (if any) have been taken to prevent the prac tice of imprisoning Debtors who are confined under judgments of County Courts in a Remand Ward; and if any inconveni ence would arise by making the rule applicable to Fraudulent Debtors, and not to mere cases of contempt for non-payment.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL said, that since a question had been asked of his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on this subject inquiries had been made into the matter, and he was informed that the Law Officers of the Crown three or four years ago had expressed their opinion that the prisoners under this Act could be treated as persons guilty of misconduct, and be subjected to severe restrictions. On looking at the Act of Parliament he found that there was certainly a power, when Insolvent Debtors came before County Court Judges, and it was proved they were guilty of fraud or making away with their effects, to subject them to that rigorous imprisonment; but County Court Judges had also the power of imprisoning persons House adjourned at half-past Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half- who answered the Court in what was past Ten o'clock. deemed an unsatisfactory manner, and the

Bill read 2 accordingly.
Committee negatived.

Standing orders Nos. 37 and 38 considered (according to Order), and dispensed with; and Bill read 3a and passed.

to show that others concerned with you in this guilty conspiracy have also been Schoolmasters intrusted with the education of the youth of this country;" and whether it was the intention of the Government to require the Commissioners of the National Board to institute a careful inquiry into the moral character and conduct of all the Schoolmasters now employed by the Board in the care and instruction of the youthful classes of the Irish people. He would also beg to ask the Irish Secretary what he proposed to do with a very important Bill which had stood for yesterday, and was postponed till next Thursday. He alluded to the Ecclesiastical Court and Registry Bill.

LORD NAAS replied, that it was not the intention of the Government to proceed with the Ecclesiastical Court and Registry Bill. The remarks of Baron Greene had been brought under the notice of the Irish Government, and it was the intention of the Lord Lieutenant to draw the attention of the Commissioners of the National Board to them.

SUPPLY.-REPORT.

MR. FITZROY brought up the Report upon Supply, upon which

LORD NAAS said, two Bills had been prepared-one a Leasing Powers Bill, and the other a Bill for amending the Law of Landlord and Tenant in Ireland, but it would be impossible to lay them on the Table during the present Session. At the earliest possible moment, however, after the meeting of the new Parliament they would be forthcoming. With regard to SIR GEORGE LEWIS observed, that the second part of the question, such an some discussion took place the day preexplanation had been received. vious on the Vote of £2,000,000 for the MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, he wish-payment of Exchequer bonds falling due ed to know whether in substance the two in May next, and it was understood that Bills referred to by the noble Lord were the same as the two which had already been before the House, and whether the Government contemplate introducing a Tenants' Compensation Bill?

LORD NAAS said, the Leasing Powers Bill was very much the same, and the second Bill included a Tenants' Compensation Clause, but of course he could not state then what the nature of the proposal would be.

NATIONAL SCHOOLMASTERS IN IRE-
LAND.

MR. LEFROY said, he would beg to ask whether the attention of the Government has been directed to certain observations of Baron Greene, when passing sentence upon Sullivan (one of the Masters under the National Board) as convicted of being engaged in a conspiracy to dethrone Iler Majesty, &c., where his Lordship stated, "I regret to say the evidence tends

some explanation would be given to-day by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the intentions of the Government with regard to this debt, and that the House would be informed whether it was intended simply to pay off these bonds and hereafter to ask for power to renew them or create a debt in some other manner of equivalent amount, or whether it was intended to defray the sum out of the Ways and Means of the year, without asking for power to create an equivalent amount of debt.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he had intended to make his usual financial statement on Monday next; but it was now impossible, in the peculiar circumstances of the House, to make that intended statement. The House would admit that it would be unfair to press him to make anything like a partial statement at the present time; but with respect to this particular Vote, he begged to state that, by the arrangements which he had