was not at present in a position to

produce stead of attaching as formerly to the the report for which the hon. and gallant" clothing colonels," devolved on those Member for Brighton had asked.

Vote agreed to.

SUPPLY-ARMY ESTIMATES.

(12.) £150,000, on account, Clothing and Necessaries.

MR. W. WILLIAMS said, he wished to call attention to the expenditure incurred for the clothing of the Guards as compared with the regiments of the line. The annual cost of the clothing of the Horse Guards was £8 15s. 2d. per man, while the cost of cavalry of the line was £5 8s. per man. The annual cost of clothing for the Foot Guards was at the rate of £4 2s. 8d. per man, and for the line of £2 6s. 3d. per man. The cost of the Guards was, therefore, very nearly double that of regiments of the line, and although he wished to see the army properly clothed, he thought the Committee ought to know the reason of this difference.

GENERAL PEEL said, that he was sur prised that the hon. Gentleman should find matter for complaint, as there was no difference whatever in the clothing of the Guards for this as compared with previous years; but there had been a reduction of £5,000 under this head. He did not think much fault could be found with the cost of the clothing of the army when the line were supplied at only £2 6s. 6d. per man per annum. On the whole Vote there was a decrease this year of £289,460 as compared with 1858-9. A portion of this decrease was occasioned by the fact that they were enabled to dispense with the large store which was formerly necessary, and that the number of free kits now is sued was much less than formerly. The only difference between the present and the old system was, that the clothing was supplied by the War Office instead of by the " clothing colonels." The same contractors were engaged, and the cloth was of very good quality.

contractors, whose good name would, of course, suffer if any complaints were found

necessary.

Vote agreed to; as were also the following Votes.

(13.) £12,000, on account, Rewards for Military Service.

(14.) £35,000, on account, Pay of General Officers.

(15.) £240,000, on account, Pay of Reduced or Retired Officers.

(16.) £90,000, on account, Pensions to Widows of Officers, &c.

(17.) £20,000, on account, Pensions and Allowances to Wounded Officers. (18.) £13,000, on account, Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals.

(19.) £550,000, on account, Out Pensioners Chelsea Hospital, &c. (20.) £60,000, on account, Superannuation and Retired Allowances.

(21.) £30,000, Buildings, &c., Rifled Ordnance Factory, Woolwich.

GENERAL PEEL observed, that a supplemental arrangement had been made to be met by this Vote of £30,000 for the establishment at Woolwich of a manufactory of Sir William Armstrong's guns under his immediate superintendence.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, he wished to ask what had been done with regard to the large mortar invented and made by Mr. Mallet. He understood that there had been several trials of this weapon, that in the main it had succeeded, and that, though parts of the mortar had at different times given way, these defects had been on each occasion remedied. At the last experiment one of the stays which held together the segments of which the mortar was compounded, being more tightened than the other stays, and having therefore to bear the whole strain of the explosion, gave way, but another stay was ready, and that accident was no proof whatever of failure. Hitherto, he understood, the mortar had not been tried with GENERAL CODRINGTON remarked, a full charge calculated to produce the that he had heard an hon. Gentleman, a greatest range of flight, and as yet no member of the Contracts' Committee, say experiment had been made, by burying that the change to what was called the one of the shells to the depth to which Weedon system had cost this country at it would probably penetrate when falling least £100,000 a year, besides destroying loaded at the end of its flight, and then the responsibility which used to prevail in exploding it while so buried, in order to regard to the clothing. But the system see what would be the extent of the crater had again been changed; the War Office which the explosion would produce. He now made the contracts direct with the thought it exceedingly important that the different firms, and the responsibility, in-weapon should be tried to the utmost, and

he wished to know, therefore, whether these trials had been made, and, if not, what reason existed for not carrying the experiments further, so as to ascertain the applicability of the mortar for warlike purposes.

GENERAL PEEL said, he had had no notice of the question, and therefore he could not enter into so full an explanation as he could wish when speaking merely from memory; but as far as he recollected, an expense of nearly £13,000 had been already incurred in the trial of this mortar, and the last report of the Ordnance Committee was to the effect that they did not consider it advisable to continue these experiments. He did not say that the experiments should not be renewed, but at the present moment the Ordnance Committee did not think it advisable to incur any further expenditure in this way. He would, however, put himself in a position to be able to give the noble Lord a more circumstantial reply.

GENERAL PEEL was understood to say that some large batteries had already gone out.

COLONEL SYKES observed, that when the requisition for those batteries had been made, the rebellion was raging in India, and that there was no prospect of its being immediately quelled. Now, however, that India lay prostrate at our feet, and that her financial embarrassments were so great, it was, he thought, highly inexpedient to encumber her with an additional force of 3,000 men, who would be obliged to go into cantonments, and would be insufficiently provided with barrack accommodation.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he believed that the cost of British Artillery in India was not greater than that of European artillery in India. He thought that the Government ought to take care that no unnecessary expenditure should be incurred under the present embarrassed state of the Indian treasury.

SIR DE LACY EVANS said, he wished to know what was the date of the requisition which had been referred to. For his own part, he was of opinion that even onehalf of the twelve batteries in question ought not to be sent out to India. Nobody who was acquainted with the subject could for one moment doubt the efficiency of the artillery employed by the East India Company, to the admirable quality of which both the late Lord Hardinge and Sir Charles Napier had borne testimony. He could not help thinking under those circumstances that there were strong objections to the discontinuance of the local artillery in India. [Gene

CAPTAIN VIVIAN said, he wished to inquire whether the Government intended to persevere in their determination to send out twelve batteries of Artillery to India. The noble Lord the Secretary for India the other night had stated such to be their intention; but he had given no sufficient reasons for sending out so large a force at this period, when the rebellion was at an end, and there was no longer any enemy in the field. He thought that there would be a great risk incurred in the sending out twelve batteries of Artillery. He should wish to know whether the Government were or would be prepared, on some future occasion, to enter into a more detailed ex-ral PEEL: Nobody proposes to do that.] planation upon this subject.

GENERAL PEEL said, a requisition had been made by the Indian Government for twelve batteries of Artillery; but the noble Lord the Secretary for India and the Council for India, having duly considered the matter and the present state of our Eastern Empire, decided upon sending out only half the amount of the force required. It was deemed absolutely necessary to have a larger force of European Artillery than of Native. The proportions of the European and the local force were regulated by the report of the Indian Commission.

CAPTAIN VIVIAN said, as he understood the requisition, it was for twelve batteries, without the guns that they simply wanted the men in India. He believed that there were plenty of guns out in India as well as stores of all kinds.

He was under the impression that it was proposed to discontinue the European Artillery now in India, and if he were right in that view he should beg the gallant General to bear in mind that any artillery force which might be sent out from England to supply its place must, for a time, be comparatively inefficient, owing to the non-acquaintance of the officers and men with the language and habits of the Natives. He might also observe that during the recent rebellion 400 pieces of cannon and about 1,000,000 stand of arms had been taken from the enemy, that 800 forts had been destroyed-so that the fact, in reality, was that the artillery in India was in excess of what was required. That being so, it would, he thought, be a most unwise proceeding at a moment when the aspect of Europe was so ominous to send out even the reduced number of thirty

or by a reinforcement of the Artillery of the line. So far from prejudging the Report of the Commission, the course which was pursued had been expressly intended to avoid prejudging the matter. There was already a certain amount of the Royal Artillery serving in India, and to increase the force to some extent was not at all introducing a new principle, and the only question was whether the addition should be local or Royal Artillery, or how much of each. Pending the Report of the Commission, it was determined in a manner to compromise the matter, and to supply the immediate, and at that time pressing demand of the Indian Government by sending out a nearly equal proportion of Artillery of the line. Since that time, however, the state of India had so improved beyond what could have been expected in August last, and the military condition of India was very satisfactory, while, he regretted to say, the financial condition was just the contrary. For both these reasons the Government had determined, although their decision had not yet been announced to the Indian Government, to reduce the number of Artillery to be sent out by one-half. With respect to the guns, he might observe that they were not to be sent out. The guns were in India, and would be handed over to the troops on arrival in that country.

six guns, as he understood was now pro- | but there was a question whether it should posed. For his own part, he strongly ob- be supplied by a local European Artillery jected to the diminution of the artillery force in this country by even a single gun, and he should suggest the expediency of postponing compliance with the requisition of the Indian Government on the subject until the report of the Commissioners on Army Organization had been received and considered. If Her Majesty's Ministers were to act otherwise, and carry out their present intention, he must say that they would, in his opinion, commit a great blunder. Having said thus much on that point, he might be permitted to draw the attention of the Government to the circumstance that the policy of establishing, at a great expense, an iron foundry at Woolwich for the manufacture of large cannon was open to much doubt. There was a considerable number of similar establishments in the country which furnished excellent cannon of that description at a fair price, and, besides, there was a large number of those guns in store. The foundry to which he alluded was, therefore unnecessary, and he should suggest that instead of being maintained for its present purpose, at an expense of £150,000, it should be handed over to the use of Sir William Armstrong. LORD STANLEY said, he thought some misapprehension prevailed as to the reason why it was in contemplation to send out the Artillery in question to India. As far as he could gather from the observations of the hon. and gallant General, he seemed to suppose that it was intended to send it out as a force in excess of that which had existed in that country before the mutiny. Such, however, was not the case. The fact was, that a large portion of the Native Artillery of Bengal had mutinied during the recent outbreak. A deficiency had therefore been created in that province in that particular arm of the service, and in August last Viscount Canning had written home a statement of his opinion as to what ought to be the amount of the Artillery force which should be maintained in India. Now, if there was one point in reference to which there was a greater concurrence of opinion among military authorities both at home and in India than another, that point was that the great bulk of the Artillery in that country should be European, and not Native. It was necessary in the judgment of the Governor General to fill up the void caused by the desertion of the Native Artillery of Bengal. There was no question that that would be filled up by Europeans,

SIR DE LACY EVANS asked the date of the requisition.

LORD STANLEY said, it was a Minute of the Governor General, dated in August last.

SIR ERSKINE PERRY said, he heard with regret from the noble Lord that he had not complied with the real requisition of the authorities in India which, as he understood, was only to recruit for the local European Artillery from this country; and that the Government were going to send out six batteries of the Royal Artillery to India. It was quite true that a large proportion of the Native force had mutinied; but we had still all the officers remaining true. The intention of the Government, if carried out, would entail a heavy charge upon India. Now, all military authorities concurred in saying that the Indian Artillery was the best in the world. We had this skilled Artillery in India at present, and also officers there who were men of twenty and twenty-five years' standing. The young officers who were going out to

India were men, perhaps, of twenty-three and gallant Member had no right to imto twenty-five years of age, whose presence pute improper motives to the Government. there would have the effect of stopping Let the gallant General wait until he saw all promotion. He trusted that before the the report of the Commissioners before he close of the Session they would have the accused the Government of acting in deReport of General Hancock. All that was fiance of it. wanted in India were the troopers and gunners to complete the complement of the Indian Artillery.

LORD STANLEY observed, that even if the twelve batteries originally intended had been sent out, the force of Artillery in India would still be below the usual amount before the rebellion.

COLONEL SYKES said, he would remind the noble Lord that the void caused in the Bengal army by the destruction of the Native Artillery had been already supplied. He hoped for the sake of the finances of India that the Government would not persevere in their intention.

SIR DE LACY EVANS said, he wished that they had received some further explanation before the Vote was agreed to.

GENERAL PEEL hoped that he should be able to lay upon the table of the House before its prorogation the report of the Commission upon the Organization of the Army in India. He thought it would not be right to prejudge the question by entering into details before they had seen the report. With respect to the hon. and gallant General's proposition to hand over Woolwich gun-factory to Sir William Armstrong, he (General Peel) could not give his assent. So far from there being an excess of guns on hand he could assure the Committee that requisitions for 68-pounders from many of our most important garrisons still remained unfulfilled.

SIR DE LACY EVANS said, he thought the Government was practically prejudging the question by sending out Artillery before the report of the Commission had been presented. The requisition of the Governor General was made in August, when India was in the midst of a fearful struggle, and the Government were now going to comply with it to the extent of one-half when the war had completely ceased. He believed that even at present there were 133 pieces of the Royal Artillery in India besides the European guns. There were some persons who desired to get rid of the local force altogether, and the public could not help thinking the Government must have some other reasons for the course they were taking than those which they had stated.

MR. KINNAIRD said, he wished to know what was done with the officers of the late Bengal Native Artillery? Were those who were unemployed on full pay ?

LORD STANLEY replied, that he was not aware that there was at present any considerable number of unemployed officers. He apprehended that most of the officers referred to had found employment, some in the new levies and some in civil employ.

COLONEL FRENCH asked, whether it was intended to break up the fine artillery service of the late East India Company.

GENERAL PEEL replied in the negative. SIR ERSKINE PERRY said he must again appeal to the Government to suspend their order for the embarcation of the six batteries until the whole question had been considered and decided. Vote agreed to. House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

SUPERANNUATION BILL.
THIRD READING.

Order for Third Reading read.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he rose not for the purpose of opposing the third reading of this measure, but to ask the Government for an estimate of the expense which its provisions would entail on the country.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE stated, in reply, that the increase of expenditure consequent upon the passing of the Bill might possibly be £70,000 a year at the utmost, taking into account the additions to be made by taking in a new class of officers, and the possible effect of an alteration in the scale. £40,000 was estimated as the possible addition by taking in the officers of the Post Office, £10,000 by admitting other officers, and £20,000 by an alteration in the scale. The hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Wilson) who had paid much attention to the subject, originally estimated the total increase in the expenditure at £100,000, but his (Sir S. Northcote's) belief was, that £50,000 would be nearer the truth.

SIR DENHAM NORREYS said, he considered this was one of the most im

GENERAL PEEL observed, that the hon. proper and uncalled-for Bills the House

had ever passed. It was founded on a | Taxes on Knowledge, very distinctly pointpromise of a revision of salaries, but that ing out the several entries contained under revision had never been and probably never would be, carried out; and yet the Bill would inflict a burden of £70,000 upon the country. He should feel pleasure in having recorded what would probably be his last vote in this Parliament against that Bill.

MR. DRUMMOND said, the Bill was a most improper one, both in principle and detail. If it were just in principle, which he denied, every banker and merchant ought to provide superannuation ances for his clerks and every private person for his servants.

MR. WEGUELIN said, that as one of the Commissioners who had originally investigated this subject, he was desirous of expressing his belief that the Bill contained the only practical conclusion that could be come to upon it. The revision of salaries referred to could only be prospective, as it was almost impossible to reduce the salaries of existing officers. The Bill might throw an additional charge upon the revenue for the present, but ultimately it would result in a saving to the country. Bill read 3o and passed.

NEWSPAPERS, &c., BILL.

the head of registration, and pointing out how very little security they afforded. He believed they were all agreed that whatever real security existed against the publication of blasphemous, indecent, slanderous, or libellous matter ought to be retained; but that whatever was not necessary to afford such security, and whatever might be classed under the head of "obsolete" ought not to remain on the Statutebook. This was the feeling of Her Maallow-jesty's Government. Many of the provisions which the hon. Gentleman intended by his Bill to repeal, were enactments or portions of enactments passed by Parliament to meet special circumstances which no longer existed. Of this kind were the provisions directed against Jacobins. There was, therefore, no reason for maintaining those provisions on the Statute-book. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ayrton) desired to know whether there were any parts of several Acts enumerated in his Bill which the Government desired to retain. He (Mr. Sotheron Estcourt) had talked the matter over with his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor General, and the result was that he could not consent at that moment to the Bill of the hon. Gentleman, for the amount of repeal which it provided for was so sweeping, and it embraced so large a scope of legislation-legislation extending over fifty years-that although on the whole he might not be prepared to point out to the hon. Gentleman what it might be necessary to retain, neither was MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT said, he ready to say what part of the existing that when this Bill came on for a second law might be safely abrogated. Therereading his hon. and learned Friend the fore, considering the position in which the Solicitor General intimated that there were House at present stood-bearing in mind objections to some of its provisions. There that even if the Government allowed the were two classes of legislative enactments Bill to pass through the Commons it could with which the Bill proposed to deal. One scarcely pass through the Lords previously referred to security, the other to registra to a dissolution, he would make an offer tion. The Solicitor General said as to to the hon. Gentleman. He would undersecurity there were enactments that had take that this matter should be fairly conbecome obsolete from circumstances, or sidered during the recessss-considered in a which were never put in force; and his spirit not different from that in which the hon. and learned Friend was willing to ac- hon. Gentleman himself had approached cede to such provisions of the hon. Mem-it-and that if he (Mr. Sotheron Estcourt) ber's (Mr. Ayrton's) Bill as dealt with had the honour of a seat in the new Parthose Statutes or portions of Statutes. But liament he would himself lay a Bill upon with regard to the provisions under the head of registration his hon. and learned Friend reserved his opinion. Since the second reading of the Bill he (Mr. S. Estcourt) had received a memorial from the Society for Promoting the Repeal of

COMMITTEE.

Order for Committee read.
House in Committee.

MR. AYRTON said, he wished to ask the Government for a statement of their intentions with respect to this Bill.

the table, preserving whatever the Government thought necessary to be retained, and repealing whatever they thought might safely be dispensed with; or that if he did not bring forward a Bill on behalf of the Government he would communicate