thought that if the contracts for the postal services were made by the Postmaster General they would be made at a cheaper rate than they now were. The contracts were at present really made for other considerations than matters connected with the Post Office. As to the contracts between this country and Ireland, the main matter of the contracts was not to attend to the requirements of Post-office commu

THE EARL OF HARDWICKE said, he did not agree with the noble Duke's last suggestion, which, it seemed to him, would defeat the very object for which tenders were invited from the public, namely, to secure the best services at the lowest cost. Now that the entire service was performed by private contractors, he thought it would be far better to leave the whole matter in the hands of the Post Office Department, who were best able to judge of the nature of the service required, and of the sum proper to be paid for it, and who should bear the whole responsibility of the arrangements.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, he believed this contract was contrary to the Act of Parliament. The money ought to be paid out of the general revenues of the country. He was concerned to see the practice which had been growing up, and Ministers fixing the country with large amounts without the sanction of Parliament. It appeared that the Government had, of its own authority, and without the sanction of Parliament, made contracts with the Red Sea Telegraph Company and with another Company for conveying the mails between Galway and America, and with another for laying down a telegraph from the coast of Ireland to America. To say that there was a Parliamentary sanction to all this because a year afterwards the sums to be paid appeared in the Estimates, was absurd. He trusted that this matter would be taken into serious consideration. All contracts ought to be entered into subject to the approval of Parliament not in a year or two, when they were called on to pay the expense, but no expense should be incurred until Parliament had given its sanction. The system which was now followed led to gigantic jobs, or to a suspicion of gigantic jobs, and ought at once to be abandoned.

senger traffic. Such also had been the case with regard to the Menai Bridge and the Bangor Bridge; and what was the ground on which we were building those enormously large vessels for the mail services? Why, nobody supposed they were intended to carry letters or newspapers. They were for passengers. The noble Lord who had just spoken seemed to forget that we were under a monarchical government, and that there must be some degree of responsibility left with the Government. And he recommended, as a preventive against suspicion of jobbery, what, perhaps, he did not know, was the American practice. But had the noble Lord never heard of "lobbying?" There was, however, a large expenditure going on without the control of Parliament; and for this, he thought, some check ought to be provided.

LORD COLCHESTER said, that the heads of the Irish contract were drawn up while the late Government were in office, and the Postmaster General was authorized to complete the arrangement. There was no intention of taking any money for these purposes from the Postoffice revenues which had not been granted by Parliament. There would be no necessity for passing any money votes for the current year; but next year, he presumed, money would be wanted, and for which Estimates would be produced, and then the question would arise as to the Government fulfilling their contract. There was no intention of withdrawing the matter from the notice of Parliament. In regard to carrying the mails to foreign parts, that was arranged by the Admiralty, under the direction of the Treasury. On the whole he believed the contract was one that had been made for the public good, and that the money was fairly expended.

LORD MONTEAGLE repeated that this contract was contrary to law, and he trusted that Parliament would see to it. He believed, however, that the matter had arisen from copying an old form of conThe whole revenue of the Post

Office ought to be paid into Her Majesty's Treasury, and Parliament should vote the expenditure of the Post Office. He believed that next Session they would have a Select Committee to inquire into the postal contracts and similar matters, and if his noble Friend could show that there was any danger of the American system of "lobbying" being applied here, he would then have the opportunity of doing so; but he could assure his noble Friend that no one could have a greater contempt for those proceedings than he had.

LORD REDESDALE having expressed an opinion that the objections taken by the noble Lord were trivial, the conversation dropped.

House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow half past Ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Monday, April 11, 1859.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS. -1° Consolidated Fund (Appropriation); Exchequer Bills (£13,277,400).

2o Convict Prisons Abroad.

3o Pauper Maintenance Act Continuance; Naval Medical Supplemental Fund Society Annuities,

&c. Act Continuance.

PRIVATE BILLS.

Ordered, That the Promoters of every Private Bill which has been introduced into this House, or brought from the House of Lords in the present Session of Parliament, shall have leave to suspend any further proceeding thereupon, in order to proceed with the same Bill in the next Session of Parliament.

so suspended, at the last stage of its proceeding in the House, in the present Session; and, where any sum of money has been deposited, that such deposit had not been withdrawn, together with a certificate of that fact from the proper officer of the Court of Chancery in England or Ireland, or the Court of Exchequer in Scotland, as the case may be.

Clerks in the Private Bill Office, as having been duly deposited with such declarations and certifi cates annexed, be laid by one of the Clerks of that Office upon the Table of the House, in the next Session of Parliament, in the order in which they shall stand upon such List, but not exceeding 50 Bills on any one day.

Ordered, That such Bills, indorsed by one of the

Ordered, That in respect of every Bill so laid upon the Table, the Petition for the Bill, and the order of leave to bring in the same in the present Session, shall be read, and thereupon such Bill shall be read a first time; and a second time (if the Bill shall have been read a second time previously to its being suspended) and if such Bill shall have been reported by any Committee in the present Session, the order for referring the Bill to a Committee shall be dispensed with, and the Bill ordered to lie upon the Table, or to be read a third time, as the case may be.

Ordered, That in case any Bill brought from any part of the House of Lords in the present Session, upon which the proceedings shall have been suspended in this House, shall be brought from the House of Lords in the next Session of

Parliament, the Agent for such Bills shall deposit in the Private Bill Office, prior to the first reading thereof, a declaration, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the House of Lords in the present Session, and where any sum of money has been deposited, that such deposit has not been withdrawn, together with a certificate of that fact from the proper officer; and so soon as one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office has certified that such deposit has been duly made, the Bill shall be read a first time, and be further proceeded with in the same manner as Bills introduced into this House during the present Session.

Ordered, That all Petitions presented in the present Session against private Bills, and which stood referred to the Committees on such Bills shall stand referred to the Committees on the same Bills, in the next Session of Parliament.

Ordered, That an Alphabetical List of all such Bills, with a statement of the stage at which the same were suspended, shall be prepared by the Private Bill Office, and printed.

Ordered, That, not later than three clear days after the next Meeting of Parliament every Bill which has been introduced into this House shall be deposited in the Private Bill Office, in the form required by Standing Order No. 166, with a declation signed by the Agent annexed thereto, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill with respect to which proceedings have been

Ordered, That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on such Bill, unless their Petition shall have been presented within the time limited in the present Session.

Ordered, That in case the time limited for pre

have expired at the close of the present Session, Petitioners may be heard before the Committee on such Bill, provided their petition be presented previous to, or not later than, seven clear days after the second reading thereof in the next Session.

Ordered, That all Instructions to Committees on Private Bills in the Present Session, which shall be suspended previously to their being reported by any Committee be instructions to the Committee on the same Bills in the next Session.

Ordered, That the said Orders be Standing Orders of this House; and be printed,

NAVAL MEDICAL SUPPLEMENTAL FUND SOCIETY ANNUITIES, &c., ACT OCNTINUANCE BILL.

THIRD READING.

Order for Third Reading read. SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he wished to ask whether this was merely a continuance Bill. A most important clause relating to savings' banks had been inserted in a continuance Bill a day or two before. SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE said, this was a mere continuance Bill.

MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT said, he wished to state with reference to the clause alluded to by the hon. Member, that during the last twelve months institutions called Penny Savings' Banks had been very generally adopted, but as the law now stood such institutions could not invest their funds beyond the limit of £200 in ordinary Savings' Banks. The Government had, however, proposed such alterations in the existing law as would place the Penny Savings' Banks in this respect upon the same footing with Friendly Societies and other similar institutions. He was informed that the clause was much required and had inserted it under the belief that no objection was felt to it.

MR. BOWYER said, that as this was a Bill referring to the Navy, he hoped he should be in order in calling attention to the subject which he wished to bring before the House, relating to Greenwich Hospital. It appeared from the Report on the Manning of the Navy, that there were now a great number of vacancies in that establishment no less than 960-which was sufficient to show that it was not popular with the navy, and that it did not give the satisfaction desirable to those for whom it was intended. He would not enter into matters of detail, but he wished to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty what measures the Government were prepared to take to place that noble establishment, which ought to be to them a subject of pride, on a better footing.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, as the hon. and learned Gentleman had given no notice of his question, he could only give him a general answer. The report to which he had alluded contained a great deal of matter, and undoubtedly the representations with reference to Greenwich Hospital were not the least important points to which it referred. It was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to inquire into the

condition of that noble institution, with the view of ascertaining whether any, and what, changes were necessary to increase its efficiency.

Bill read 3o, and passed.

RAILWAY TICKETS TRANSFER BILL.

COMMITTEE.

Order for Committee read. House in Committee. Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to. Clause 3.

In

MR. AYRTON said, he did not know whether the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary had been called to the language of this clause. his opinion the offences to which it referred were defined in very vague and general terms, and every person who entered a railway train with a return ticket would be liable at any period of his journey, under the loose wording, to be apprehended and imprisoned by officers of railway companies. He would move as an Amendment to the clause that any railway company should issue any ticket for the purpose of being used by any person named thereon, with the words "not transferable," and that any other person who should use such ticket, or should sell or transfer it for the purpose of being used, or should alter the name thereon, should be guilty of the offence. It would be most improper to clothe a railway company with so large a power as was proposed, and allow their servants to seize any poor person travelling on the line and lock him up as they pleased, especially when it was remembered that a person thus treated would have no redress, unless he could show that the company had no reasonable ground for seizing him.

MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT said, that undoubtedly the words of the Act were very wide, but the simple fact was that the offence of selling railway tickets had recently been one of continual recurrence, and it had been thought necessary that some precautions should be taken to protect the railway companies. At the same time it was very desirable they should not go beyond what the justice of the case demanded. Perhaps the best course would be for the hon. Member to give notice of and print his Amendments. If that were done, the Government would consent to postpone the Committee until to-morrow, in order to consider the substitution of the words proposed.

COLONEL FRENCH said, he would appeal to the Government whether it was necessary that the Bill should pass at all, it having been understood that only measures of an urgent nature should be pressed.

MR. EDWIN JAMES said, he thought his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General could hardly have seen the provisions of this Bill. It was true that in one case it was discovered that a number of persons had conspired to procure excursion tickets at Brighton from persons who had gone down with them from London, for the purpose of selling them to others; but the case having been distinctly proved, the parties were very properly convicted and punished. If this Bill passed, however, a person who had innocently enough given his child, or relative, or servant, an excursion ticket would be liable to be seized and taken before a magistrate, and his name, probably, placarded all over the country, in the same manner as the names of parties who smoked in the railway carriages were. He certainly thought it would be advisable under the circumstances to withdraw the

measure.

MR. HENLEY said, the clause went further even than the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir Henry Willoughby) supposed. It empowered any railway servant or constable, or anybody else, to apprehend anybody charged with this offence at any time or in any place. Surely no one but a person connected with a railway could have drawn such a clause. Ordinarily, power was only given to seize anybody actually committing such offences, but railway companies under this clause might send a constable, fetch anybody out of this House, and lock him up as long as was convenient. There was certainly nothing in the Statute-book which could at all come near it. He trusted that the Bill would be amended in that respect, at all

events.

LORD LOVAINE said, he must agree that the terms of the Act were certainly very large, but it must be remembered the provisions by which the railway companies

MR. AYRTON said, that in the Act referred to the offences dealt with were offences committed on the line of railway; but in the present instance the offence might be committed anywhere, because a railway ticket could be given away in any locality. As this was a Bill which had come down from the other House of Parliament he wished to treat it with every respect, but under the circumstances he felt he should be justified in asking the Chairman to report progress, in order to enable the Government to consider whether it would not be advisable to withdraw it.

MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONS said, he objected both to the power and the penalty created by this clause. Was the principle to be carried further? Were gentlemen to be made responsible who gave away the tickets on coming out of the Opera? The proper course to deal with persons offending in this way was to compel them to pay full fare, or in default to hand them over to a constable. He was surprised that a measure so lax in its provisions should ever have passed "another place.'

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL said, that he thought the history of this Bill was not clearly understood. What had taken place was this:-Several lines of railway had year after year given the public greater facilities for travelling, in the shape of return and excursion tickets, and it was very evident that they must discontinue that kind of accommodation if it became a source of loss to them from the manner in which parties dealt with the tickets. Under these circumstances, one or two railway companies who came to Parliament this year inserted clauses in their Bills for the purpose of checking the improper use of these tickets; but it was objected by the noble Lord who had charge of such Bills in "another place," that as the matter was one which concerned the public generally it ought to form the subject of a general measure, and accordingly this Bill was introduced in the House of Lords. He agreed with the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets that it was impossible on any sound principle to allow any power of the