in his evidence before the Committee of 1836, said,

"The department of natural history ought to be transfered somewhere else. I wish to impress upon the Committee the absolute necessity of this separation. No good can ever be done without it."

mens that there were in the Museum; and he had drawn out a scheme for a national collection, which occupied a space equal to that covered by the British Mescum alone, Nothing, therefore, had occurred to induce the right hon. Gentleman to change his opinion, unless it were the publication of a document which had been drawn up by certain gentlemen who seemed to be afraid that the interests of science were likely to be neglected. His hon. Friend had said that that document was owing to what had fallen from him (Lord Elcho), when he had recommended, in a light and airy way, that the natural history collection should be scattered over the metropolis. He (Lord Elcho) certainly did say that such and such arrangements might be made, but he did not say that they ought to to made. He did not pretend to so much insight as his hon. Friend, who declared he had seen some antiquities from the ruins of Carthage when they were buried under seven feet of earth. The question was one for the Government to decide after hearing proper evidence, and there was nothing in his suggestions, therefore, which need have alarm

Again in 1848, Mr. Panizzi observed that every year the question pressed stronger upon the minds of all who turned their attention to the subject, whether collections of rarities from all countries of the globe-from the depths of the ocean-from the immensity of aërial space-together with the ruins of ancient cities-should all be crowded together under one roof, or whether some portions of them might not be maintained in separate buildings proportionate to the wealth and power of the country to which they belonged. He then suggested that the natural history department of the collection ought to be transferred to some other place. Last year, when this subject was under discussion he (Lord Elcho) ventured to express a hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would deal with this question himself and speedily, and not refer it once more to a Commission or Committee. Upon that occasion the right hon. Gentle-ed these gentlemen. Nor had he intended

man said

"That the time would come-indeed he might say had already come when they must consider the question of how the public collections of this country could be most effectually arranged. That was a question which could no longer be avoided. He was not at all prepared to say that the consideration of the question should be postponed, Committee and Commission had fulfilled their tasks. All the information required upon the subject was before the House, and what was required was a determination to avail themselves

of it, in order to act upon it.

He (Lord Elcho) now heard from his hon. Friend that the right hon. Gentleman had given his sanction to the appointment of the Committee. He would not twit the right hon. Gentleman with his change of opinion, but he must say that nothing had occurred which should have led him to take a different view. He knew that the right hon. Gentleman had visited the Museum lately, and had spent several hours there, and he must have been convinced from what he saw, that it was impossible it could remain in its present state. The correspondence which had been laid before Parliament would tend to show equally that there was a want of space in the Museum, and his hon. Friend had said that Mr. Owen had drawn up a report, in which he had stated that he had no room to exhibit the speci

in the least to slight the claims of science in this matter. It would be folly to contend that the interests of art were to be considered at the expense of science; and that such was not his view was evident, because the question referred to the Commission of which he had spoken was, whether it would not be possible to combine with the National Gallery the fine art and archæological collections from the Museum. But the objection to the removal of these collections was the expense which would be incurred on account of their bulky character. A butterfly might be removed without difficulty, but not a marble plinth. The mere removal of one statue from one side of the Egyptian gallery to the other-a space not wider than this House-cost £60; and when the expense of removing all these bulky works was considered, hon. Members would probably come to the conclusion that the archæological and fine art collection must remain where it was, and that if space could not be found on the present site, the natural history collection must be removed. Justice could not be done to the scientific collection if it were allowed to remain where it was. At present, there were skins of birds, beasts, and fishes, poked away in drawers, unstuffed and unexhibited; and those which were exhibited were

ment, aud the inquiry would have to be commenced afresh on the meeting of a new Parliament.

MR. SLANEY said, he hoped that in any re-organization of the British Museum means would be taken to provide lectures, especially upon natural history, at a time when they could be attended by the humbler classes. He had derived great entertainment and instruction from the lectures of Professor Owen, but they were given, he was sorry to say, at an hour when the working classes could not attend. Many of that class took great delight in investigating natural history, and some of our best writers on that subject had sprung from that class. One of the best books on fishes and birds was written by one whom he had great pleasure to call his friend, the late Mr. Yarrell, and who when living was a humble tradesman in the neighbourhood of St. James's Street.

so crowded, that in many instances it was impossible to distinguish one specimen from another. It was essential that some order should be brought into this chaos. Let the House consider what were the contents of the Museum. They consisted of stuffed birds, beasts, and fishes, dried plants, insects, and desiccated natives (so they were ticketed), from the South Sea Islands, minerals, geological specimens, and antediluvian reptiles, medieval pottery and glass, Egyptian, Assyrian, Grecian, Roman, Celtic, and Saxon antiquities, and works of art; the finest archæological and fine art collection in the world, besides ancient coins, gems, and medals, drawings, manuscripts, etchings, engravings, and a library of 600.000 volumes, increasing at the rate of 16,000 volumes a year. When to this was added a copy of every newspaper published in the British Islands and in the Colonies, hon. Gentlemen would see the chaotic state to which the Museum must be re- SIR JOHN SHELLEY said, he thought duced, and the impossibility of finding space it desirable that the Committee should be on the present site for a collection so ra- appointed. After what had occurred about pidly accumulating. With due deference the National Gallery, it was quite essential to his hon. Friend, therefore, he ventured that an inquiry should take place. A meto say this was the time, not for inquiry, morial against the separation of the colbut for action. The course he ventured to lections in the Museum had been signed suggest to the right hon. Gentleman was by all the leading men of science in the this-that he should not object to the Com- country, who said that the removal of any mittee proposed by his hon. Friend, but of the collections from their present central that before any inquiry took place, the sub-position would be viewed with great disject should be referred to the Trustees, favour by the public generally. who should lay their views upon the whole question before the Government, and that their proposals should be laid upon the table of the House. If their proposals should not be satisfactory to his hon. Friend, or to other hon. Members who took an interest in the subject, then let an inquiry, by a Committee, take place. The mode in which the House dealt with the National Gallery question had been referred to, but that, he thought, was not a good specimen of the result of a Parliamentary inquiry. The Committee upon that question issued a Report, in which they recommended the adoption of a site at Kensington, but that recommendation was carried by a majority of only one. The Government, instead of acting upon their own suggestions, brought in a Bill to carry into effect the recommendation of the Committee, but public opinion did not support the decision of the Committee, and he succeeded in carrying a Motion against the Government. It might happen that if a Committee at once began to inquire into the subject, its labours would be interrupted by a dissolution of Parlia

MR. MONCKTON MILNES observed that the proposition of the noble Lord opposite (Lord Elcho) would have the effect of shelving the Committee altogether; for if they were not to inquire until some indefinite time when the Trustees had inquired and reported, they were not likely to inquire at all. There was, he thought, another grave objection to the proposition of the noble Lord, which was, that the Trustees would guide the Committee instead of the Committee the Trustees. In his opinion, as it would be impossible much longer to avoid a large expenditure in enlarging the Museum, a Committee should be appointed to ascertain in what manner the money could be most beneficially and economically expended. It was not, he thought, true that the subject was already exhausted, and he fancied that when the Committee entered upon their labours they would find the question to be fresher than was generally supposed. The previous Committees and Commissions had entirely evaded the question of arrangement and subdivision. In his opinion the labours of

the Committee would be extremely useful, |—allow us to use the information we have, and he hoped they would approach the and attempt the adjustment of a long-conconsideration of the subject with minds troverted question." But the Government entirely free from unjust suspicions, and was not in a position at that moment to that no factious or unworthy feelings (with hold out to the House any fair expectation regard to erroneous impressions relating to of dealing with the question this Session; distinguished persons) would taint the re- and he could not understand why a Comsults to which they might arrive. He ven- mittee of the House could in any way form tured to suggest that as the present re- an obstacle to the Government in dealing muneration to the officers of the British with the question. If the Government was Museum was extremely small, regard being prepared to deal with the question, he had to their acquirements and to what they should certainly intimate to the Commitmight be able to obtain elsewhere, the tee with very great respect that the Goquestion of remunerating them better might vernment did not wish them to prolong form a fitting subject for inquiry by the their labours to too great an extent. They Committee. had attempted to deal with the question of THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE- the National Gallery, and had brought it QUER said, he still retained the opinion to a satisfactory arrangement. But he saw which he had expressed last year-that no hope of the Government being able to the consideration of this question by the deal with the question this Session. Under House ought not to be much longer de- the circumstances an inquiry by a Commitlayed. He thought that the House and tee of that House might be of benefit; if the Government were in possession of all it did not bring any fresh information, any the information requisite to guide them in new results to those who had given great that reorganization of this institution which attention to the subject, it might still have was not only necessary, but inevitable. They a tendency to prepare the public mind for could not retain its character as a first-rate that change which he considered inevitinstitution unless they took some means of able; and with that view he consented to reorganizing its different branches. He the appointment of the Committee. repeated that the labours of Committees and Commissions, and the information thence resulting, appeared to him quite sufficient to guide the Government in the task of reorganization; and with those views, which he still retained, he had certainly expressed the opinion that further inquiry was unnecessary, assuming that it would be the duty of Government to recommend to Parliament some means by which the evils complained of might be remedied. But unfortunately it had not been in the power of Government to make such a proposition. The pressure of business had prevented their dealing with the subject, which they had certainly intended to do; and he had now to consider whether, being unable to realize the expecta tions which he had held out to the House, he ought to oppose the inquiry which the hon. Gentleman proposed, and which was generally approved. The object of that inquiry was not merely to obtain informa

tion.

A Committee was often very useful in reconciling conflicting opinions, and in preparing the public mind for a solution of questions of this nature. A Committee in this case could do no harm, and might do good. If he found the Committee interfering with the Government he should certainly say, We have information enough

LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, he was not at all disposed to complain of the decision at which the right hon. Gentleman had arrived. The announcement made by the Government last year, that they would hear no more of Committees or Commissions but decide the question themselves, was, perhaps, somewhat hasty. He could not concur in the remark made by the hon. Mover of this Motion, that the Trustees of the British Museum must be the persons of all others least qualified to give an opinion on this subject. On the contrary, if they had attended to their duties at all, they ought to be well able to express such an opinion. The position of the British Museum appeared to be this:-In January, 1858, the Standing Committee came to a Resolution that there was a great deficiency of space, and that in considering the means of providing adequate space they ought to confine themselves to the actual and immediate requirements of the Museum. The majority of the Trustees thought it would be the best way of deciding the question to adopt the Report of that Committee; he himself thought that it ought to be referred to the Government as it involved very large considerations. The institution consisted of three great divisions. First, there was the library,

tendance were Lord Macaulay, Sir R. Murchison, and the Marquess of Lansdowne. The present constitution of the governing body was formed on the sugges tions of the late Sir Robert Peel, and be (Lord John Russell) doubted, therefore, very much whether the constitution of the trust could be improved; but although he thought that the question had been brought forward by the hon. Gentleman rather too much in an agitating spirit, he had no objection, nor had the Trustees any, to the appointment of the Committee.

comprising 600,000 volumes, and increas- that it would be right to displace them. ing very largely every year. It was the The hon. Gentleman had said, somewhat best library in Europe. It had capacity incorrectly, that the Trustees named their to receive the additions which would pro- own body. The constitution of the trust bably be made to it during the next forty was certainly a very peculiar one. The offiyears; the reading-room afforded every cial Trustees were the persons who filled convenience for study; and the facilities up any vacancies which might occur, and with which works were supplied to those they had recently exercised their power who wished to peruse them were quite by the appointment as a Trustee of Mr. unexampled. The state of the library, Grote, a gentleman who was distinguishtherefore, though it might be still capable ed both in history and general literature, of some minor improvements, did not call and who would be a great acquisition to for any extensive change. The case, how the trust. Another portion of the Trusever, was different with the archæological tees nominated to all offices to which any department, which was of great value in salary was attached, and a third, called illustrating the history of art; and in re- the Standing Committee, attended to the gard to the natural history branch the de- regular superintendence of the Museum. ficiency of accommodation was still greater. He believed that they discharged their The stuffed animals were crowded together duties most conscientiously. There were in such a manner that it was impossible to generally eight or ten members of the Comdistinguish the characteristics of the dif-mittee present at a meeting, and among ferent specimens. The architect had pro- those who were most regular in their atposed a plan by which, for a sum of £150,000, some of these deficiencies would be removed for a limited number of years. The question to be considered by Parliament and the Government and by the Committee, if it should be appointed, was this-whether it would be wise to go on erecting additions to the north-east and west of the existing building, or whether they ought to seek for another site in which to place a part of these collections. His opinion was that the latter course would be the best mode of preserving and increasing these collections in a manner worthy of the country. The enlargement of the present buildings, for which purpose they would require to purchase land of very great value, would necessarily be attended with very heavy expense. But supposing they decided to remove a portion of these collections, the next question was, what portion should it be? Sir R. Murchison and other eminent scientific men thought that the natural history department contained objects of very great interest, and that when sufficient space was being obtained for its accommodation the site chosen should be a convenient one for the public. Another question which the hon. Gentleman wished to raise was with reference to the government of the Museum. He thought no one could doubt that, the Museum having been partly formed by bequests, the representatives of the families which had made them must remain part of the governing body. The Earl of Derby and the Earl of Cawdor sat as Trustees on that account, and he did not think

SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, that as the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared to have a clear opinion as to the course which ought to be adopted with regard to the British Museum, it was desirable that when this Committee commenced its investigation it should be informed of the conclusion at which the Government had arrived. He understood that conclusion to be that it would be expedient to divide the collections of the British Museum, and no longer to act upon the principle of combining the different collections-the library, the collections of ancient art and the natural history collections-under one roof. If the Government having arrived at that conclusion should not have found leisure to mature means for carrying their opinion into effect, such a conclusion ought to operate on the inquries about to be commenced. There was another point to which he wished to advert. He did not think that if the Committee were appointed according to the terms which the hon. Mover had pro

necesssity of dividing the collection. He would therefore suggest to the hon. Gentleman, in the room of organization, to substitute some words by which the Committee would understand that they were to consider the present amount of accommodation, with a view to a better disposal of the collection. Within that limit the Committee might collect a large amount of important and useful information in which the opinions of all might be brought, as it were, into a focus. He did not, however, understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have expressed any definite opinion as to the separation of the several collections, beyond pointing out that from the limited area of the existing Museum it was impossible that they should be kept together.

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posed, it would be very easy for them to understand exactly what was the subject of inquiry; he did not think that the term "reorganization" of the British Museum precisely designated the hon. Gentleman's object. The main subject to be referred for inquiry was, whether the existing collections of the British Museum should be kept combined under one roof, or whether some portion should be removed to another locality; whether, in fact, there should be a fresh building for the purposes of the Museum. If that were the object, it would be desirable to use terms to express the meaning more accurately. If the hon. Gentleman desired to introduce the question of the constitution of the body of Trustees, or to refer to their administration, he should distinctly express his intention. It seemed to him doubtful whether it was desirable that the inquiry should embrace that subject. An inquiry had taken place some years ago, under the Duke of Somerset, into the constitution of the British Museum, and he (Sir George Lewis) was not aware that there were any complaints as MR. GREGORY said, that in framing to the constitution of the body of Trustees, his Motion he had purposely used words of or that any necessity had been shown for rather wide signification, because, besides investigation into the construction of that the question as to the separation of the body. As a Trustee of the British Museum collections and the site, he wished to emhe should make no objection to any inquiry brace in the reference certain points of deinto the constitution or administration of tail connected with the internal structure the trust, but if there should not be any of the Museum, which should be so decided reason for such inquiry it would be easy as to leave no doubt that they should have to bind down the inquiry to the main sub- a lecture-room and lectures in the Museum. ject, whether there should be a distribution He would, therefore, willingly fall in with of the contents of the Museum. He would the suggestion of the House if any hon. suggest, therefore, that the hon. Member Member would find him a word compreshould either amend the terms of his Mo-hensive enough to include the disposition tion at once, or, if not prepared to do so at that moment, that he should withdraw the Motion and give notice of introducing it in an amended form next day.

MR SOTHERON ESTCOURT said, he entirely agreed with the right hon. Gentleman who last addressed the House that the Motion of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Galway was so worded as to open so wide a field for inquiry that it was hardly possible to know to what particular subject the Committee should confine its investigation. If the word reorganization was retained the Committee would have to extend its labours for many years; but he understood the hon. Gentleman to complain chiefly of the want of accommodation, and with regard to that point they found that the room was clearly insufficient for the purposes of the institution, and they were almost driven to the

MR. AYRTON said, he would suggest that the terms of the Motion should be for a Select Committee to inquire into the accommodation furnished in the British Museum, and whether any change of site was desirable."

of the collection, the site of the building, its structure, the establishment of lectures, and the providing of a lecture-room. He had not intended to say, as the noble Lord had represented, that the trust was too much in the hands of noble Dukes and great persons, nor to contend that the Trustees ought not to be consulted in this matter. What he wanted was, to introduce into the trust men who had derived their eminence exclusively from science. He would, however, withdraw his Motion, and substitute the following:-" A Select Committee to inquire into the accommodation required for the collections of the British Museum.”

MR. COWPER remarked that, he thought that Amendment confined the inquiry within too narrow limits, as there were subjects beyond the accommodation required demanding inquiry. He would