to secure that object; but seeing that the demands on the public purse must henceforth be very large, and feeling the necessity which existed for scrutinising the expenditure, he was prepared to support any investigation or inquiry which would tend to prevent the possibility of a mal-expenditure of one shilling for the service of the navy.

SIR FRANCIS BARING said, that no blame could be attributed to the noble and gallant Lord for having brought the subject forward, but he thought that his Motion was very little calculated to remedy the evils which he thought existed, because the Return asked for would be hardly worth the paper on which it was written. Why did not the noble Lord go to the real way of doing business and move for a Committee, in which the noble Lord's figures might be fairly tested? Nobody could follow the noble Lord's figures as they were delivered; but why not have a Committee and see if they were correct? Probably it would be found there that the noble Lord was a better sailor than calculator, and that he had omitted a great many items which ought to be taken into account. His (Sir Francis Baring's) impression, however, was, that an inquiry into our increased naval expenditure was advisable; and he was sorry that the House allowed such statements as had just been made to pass without an inquiry. An hon. Friend had defended Sir Baldwin Walker. Now-a-days nobody was attacked. If any jobbery or wasteful expenditure were pointed out, it was always 'the system," not any individual, that was attacked. But he knew Sir Baldwin Walker well enough to feel that the speech of the noble Lord would give him great pain-for everybody knew that the actual responsibility was in his hands and that he would look anxiously for an opportunity of meeting statements which, though no personal attack was made, must in a great measure affect him. He (Sir Francis Baring) would again press the House not to be content with these vague accusations, but to go to work like men of business, and examine into the general expenditure of the navy.

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He was

quite sure that good would come from such an investigation; the Admiralty, like other folk, were liable to mistakes; and these revisions of the establishment were from time to time extremely valuable.

an inquiry. He hoped his noble and gal. lant Friend would push his inquiries till a conclusion had been arrived at. As to Sir Baldwin Walker, he was sure his noble and gallant Friend meant no attack on him. There never was a more able, a more amiable, and a more excellent public servant than that gallant officer.

SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONE said, that if the noble Lord had moved for a Committee he would have supported him, for he thought that inquiry into the constitution of the Board of Admiralty was much needed. That a civilian should be First ' Lord of the Admiralty seemed to him as great an anomaly as if an Admiral were put into the Court of Common Pleas. As to the reconstruction of the navy, he did not think the Return asked for by the noble Lord would help to effect that object. He should recommend an examination of the American mode of dealing with their navy, for he thought there many points which might be advantageously adopted by us. What he blamed the Admiralty for was, that at the time when steam was first introduced they had not caused the whole subject of naval architecture to be thoroughly investigated, and had not pointed out to the country that the then existing navy would soon be utterly useless. He was convinced that, had a proper investigation taken place at that time, large sums of money would have been saved to the country. Even now we had not arrived at anything like perfection. Perhaps our 90 gun ships were as near the mark as it was possible to be; but the question yet to be determined was, whether they could maintain their stations during the winter off a given point. There were many similar questions which ought to be investigated by a Committee. The noble Lord opposite in bringing forward the subject that evening, had, he believed, no intention of making any personal allusions; but he was nevertheless of opinion, from the turn which the debate had taken, that it was absolutely necessary the inquiry should be pursued further, and that a Committee should with that view be appointed. With respect to our frigates, of which mention had been made in the course of the discussion, he could only say that he looked upon them. as being unequal to the expectations formed of them; the same class of American vessels he understood to excel them in

SIR GEORGE PECHELL thought the point of stability. In support of that Motion of the noble Lord would be attend-opinion, he might observe that he had a ed with the good effect of bringing about few days before seen a letter which had VOL. CLIII. [THIRD SERIES.]

D

her main deck; 8-inch guns on her lower deck, a 96 cwt. gun on her forecastle; an engine of 400 tons between her main and mizen masts; the result of the alteration having been that she looked more like a sand-barge than a man-of-war, and on her way out to Lisbon rolled to such a pitch, that she was only righted by being struck by the sea. At one time she was over forty-seven degrees. It was into transactions of that description that inquiry ought to be instituted. Such an investigation might lead to some result, butʼinasmuch as that was not the course which it was proposed to take, and as he did not think the Motion of the noble Lord was calculated to be of any practical operation he could not support it.

been received from Greytown, in which the writer stated that having little or nothing to do he and his friends amused themselves in looking at the Diadem rolling. Now, if such a vessel as the Diadem, which was one of the handsomest ships in the navy, could be spoken of in that way, was it not fair, he would ask, to suppose that there were others still more open to objection upon the score of being ill fitted to encounter bad weather? As to the gun-boats which the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Admiralty seemed to think the most efficient class of ships in the navy-[Sir JOHN PAKINGTON: I said they were very valuable vessels]—he must pronounce them the most miserable specimens of naval architecture which were ever constructed for sea-going purposes, though, MR. MILNER GIBSON rose for the no doubt, they had answered the purpose purpose of observing that if they were to for which they were constructed. The have a Committee upon the naval expendijustice of that opinion it would be easy ture of the country-which he thought was to ascertain, if a return, setting forth generally assented to by the House-it apthe length of time occupied by some of peared to him that whether the Estimates those gun-boats in their passage to China, should be presented to the House in this were laid upon the table of the House. particular form would be a very fair subject In one instance the time so occupied was, for the Committee to inquire into and report he believed, eleven months, while none upon. That was a matter which should of them, he was informed, had reached come from the Committee rather than that India in less than six months. He under the House should lay down any particular stood, also, that one of their number was form. He would, therefore, respectfully thirteen days off the Cape of Good Hope, suggest to his noble Friend not to press his running before a gale of wind, no victuals Motion to a division, but rather to substiduring that period having been cooked tute for it a Resolution to the effect that on board, so that her crew were obliged a Committee should be appointed to exato eat raw meat. He heard that some mine into our naval expenditure, as proof those vessels were to be despatched posed by the right hon. Baronet the Memto Vancouver's Island, but how such crea- ber for Portsmouth (Sir Francis Baring). tures were to get round Cape Horn, he, He must, however, observe that he had for one, could not make out. All he felt rather taken at the first blush by the could say was, that he should be very sorry proposal for a Return, for it appeared to to be on board one of them if they were him but reasonable to suppose that if those to make the voyage in the winter time, connected with our naval departments were for he deemed them to be thoroughly in- required to submit beforehand a statement efficient as foreign-going craft. In stat- of the amount of expenditure which they ing his opinion thus candidly he did not contemplated making for any particular seek to cast blame upon the shoulders of purpose, they would be much more likely any person or party in particular, but he to deliberate upon the undertaking duly, could not refrain from expressing his con- than when they had merely to receive the viction that a great deal of the money money and lay it out without question. As which had been laid out upon our navy in the case of erecting barracks, so in the had been misapplied. As a single illustra- case of shipbuilding-the necessity of furtion of such misapplication he might men- nishing such a statement might operate tion the case of the Sanspareil, which as a practical check on unnecessary expenhad come under his own observation. She diture. For his own part, he never heard was built on the lines of one of the finest line-of-battle ships we had ever succeeded in taking from the French, but having been so built she had been changed into a screw. Long 32-pounders had been placed upon

that Mr. Cunard, or any of our other great steamship proprietors were continually making alterations in their vessels, such as was constantly being done by the Board of Admiralty. lle believed, however, the expe

were supposed to possess, she could only | expenditure incurred. The hon. Member go seven miles and a half under steam in for Dovor had stated that his noble Friend the most favourable circumstances. Then had in his comparison of the Pearl not she certainly carried very heavy guns; but made allowance for the difference of the he observed no signs of their having ever scantling. But scantling was determined been cast loose. Then she could only carry by the tonnage of the ship, and his noble coal for a few days-every hole and corner Friend had shown that a vessel of the was stuffed with coal bags in the case of a same tonnage and scantling as the Pearl long voyage. So much for the Merrimac. built in a private yard cost considerably There was another vessel much talked of, less than a similar vessel built in a Gothe Wabash; but it was admitted now that vernment yard. He suggested that his she was an extremely slow sailer. Then noble Friend should withdraw his Motion, there was the Niagara, but he thought and substitute one for the appointment of the House would do well to pause before a Committee to inquire-not into the adthey adopted her for a model. She could ministration of the navy, because that was not steam any faster than our own vessels, far too comprehensive a subject for one and though she was of 5,000 tons burden Committee to deal with-but into the exshe only carried twelve guns. These were penditure incurred in the construction of not results to tempt this country to imitate Her Majesty's ships. He much doubted the system of the United States. The the policy of these conversions and lengthhon. Member for Portsmouth had spoken enings and rebuildings of vessels which the of the Diadem rolling off Greytown; but it right hon. Baronet had stated were taking must be remembered that there were heavier place. He would suggest that it was rollers in that neighbourhood than in almost worthy of inquiry whether it would not be any part of the world; and, therefore, it more advantageous to dispose of those ships was no proof, because a vessel rolled there, for what they would fetch and build new that she would do so in other places. He ones in their stead. He believed that thought that the noble Lord had rather £7,000,000 properly applied would go as exaggerated the estimated expense of build- far as £10,000,000 now went in building ing, and he joined in the suggestion that it our ships of war and in our naval expenwould be better to appoint a Committee diture generally. There was a strong than to agree to the Resolution before the opinion abroad that there was a very unHouse. necessary expenditure in our public Departments, especially in the navy, and that was another reason why he thought that some such inquiry as had been suggested was necessary. He hoped, therefore, that the right hon. Baronet would not object to the appointment of a Select Committee.

SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONE would say one word in explanation. The reason why the crew of the gun-boat to which he alluded ate raw meat was, that they could not cook because they were obliged for twelve days to scud before a gale of wind. MR. LINDSAY said, that instead of the Motion of his noble Friend the Member for Sandwich doing injury to the navy, he who exposed what he considered to be its abuses or shortcomings rendered a service both to the public and to the navy. His noble Friend had investigated the subject with great labour and great industry through a period of eleven years, and he found, to his great regret, that there was a deficiency of no less than £5,000,000. In point of fact the right hon. Baronet the First Lord had admitted some days ago the substance of what the noble Lord had now stated. The right hon. Baronet was aware of the figures which his noble Friend had stated, and he had armed himself on the present occasion with statements from the Surveyor of the Navy in explanation. That statement in effect confirmed what his noble Friend had said as to the large

SIR CHARLES WOOD: I am as willing, as others have been, to bear testimony to the ability as well as the calm and moderate tone with which the noble Lord has brought forward his Motion. I quite acquit him and other hon. Gentlemen who have spoken of any intention of intending to make an attack on the right hon. Gentleman (Sir John Pakington) or myself, or any of the other gentlemen who were my predecessors in the office of First Lord of the Admiralty during the last eleven years. The noble Lord says, that only the system is assailed; but that does not prevent some of the statements that have been made from being a most painful attack on Sir Baldwin Walker, one of the most valuable and efficient officers ever employed by the Board of Admiralty. I am rejoiced to find that this attack has elicited such a general expression of opin