a dozen foreigners had attempted to get | 6,000 or 7,000 persons; and I will unup an insurrection they would have been dertake to say that amongst them they quietly put into the reservoirs in Trafalgar own property to the value of not less than Square in the course of five minutes by the £1,000,000 sterling. I ask the hon. Genpeople themselves; and yet it was thought tlemen opposite, then, why it is that these necessary that 20,000 troops, if I mistake men have not the same fears with regard not, should be drawn round London to be to the population that you have? Surely ready in case of a disturbance. I well re- they must know what they are about. collect that the noble Lord the Member for They must know that if any danger should Tiverton (Viscount Palmerston) gave an ac. come to the country it would touch them count of what a foreigner said to him of the first? Your landed estates are more perdeportment of the masses of the people on manent than our manufactures; and any that occasion. The noble Lord knows well convulsion in the country, any violent acthe character of the people, and he told tion of the democracy, would of course be the foreigner that all this order was the infinitely more perilous to us than it could result of some sense on the part of the possibly be to you. And yet all those perpeople that they had a Government which, sons in Yorkshire and Lancashire, and I on the whole, did not intend to oppress them, believe a large portion of the employers that the people were good tempered in of labour in those counties are in favour themselves, they were intelligent and or of a very large extension of the suffrage, derly, and that a policeman was an au- and believe that it would conduce to their thority of high dignity among them, whota own advantage and the safety of their own they at once obeyed. These words do property if such a concession were made by much credit to the noble Lord's good taste, the House. Without votes, we know that and they are perfectly true as regards the the working classes who think about this people of this country. Why, I ask, do question feel that they are distrusted, that not hon. Gentlemen opposite agree with they are aliens, that they are marked as the hon. Member for Dorsetshire, and not inferiors, that they are, as the right hon. fear the people? Why is it that you have Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchea dread of the people which the corres- quer said, in some sort pariahs. In that ponding class in the manufacturing districts position, if opportunity offers, it is not to -the employers and the owners of pro- be wondered at if great discontent, and perty-never entertain? Hon. Gentlemen sometimes even turbulence, should arise; know that I have lately attended a meet- but if you give votes to these men, you ing at Bradford. At that meeting two will find that they have much self-respect, men moved resolutions, namely, Mr. Titus and much elevation of mind, and that there Salt, of Bradford, and Mr. John Crossley, will be a great and wide strengthening of the brother of the hon. Member for Halifax, their virtue. If the House will permit me than whom I believe there are not in the I should like to read an extract from a kingdom two manufacturers more eminent letter which has been addressed to me by and more prosperous, or who enjoy more a working man, who is employed, I believe, of the confidence of the people among as a stonemason, relative to the question whom they live. These two Gentlemen whether a working man can be trusted cordially agreed in every proposal which I with the franchise. He writes me a letter, brought forward for an extension of the of which this is an extract; and I am sure suffrage. I come next to Rochdale, the the House will think that it contains words town in which I live. A meeting was held that are deserving of remark. He says:— there, and it was attended by gentlemen almost equally eminent, and almost equally large employers; and they took precisely the same course. Then let us pass to Bury, to Blackburn, or to Bolton. At that latter place there was a remarkable meeting, and I had a conversation with four gentlemen there on the subject of the policy which I was disposed to pursue. One of these gentlemen said he thought the suffrage which I was disposed to propose was not sufficiently extensive. Now, these four gentlemen employed probably "But some say that we, as working men, have no stake and no interest in the country. I hardly know what is meant by these assertions; but if to make sacrifices for the good of our country be any proof of an interest, I believe the working classes can clearly show greater sacrifices, and fairly claim to have greater stake and interest both in the country and in good government. I had three uncles who all lost their lives fighting for their country; I had three brothers, two of whom served under Lord Wellington throughout the Peninsular campaign; and my third and youngest brother lost his life in the Indian war, and now lies buried at Kurnaul. I had two nephews, one of whom died of the cholera at [Third Night. And now, in advocating a measure of Reform more extensive than many hon. Members of this House would be prepared to Varna, and the other, after serving throughout | betrayed agriculturists. I recollect that the Crimean war, was raised from the ranks, and he said upon one occasion that he would is now a lieutenant. No doubt but very many rest the whole question on the condition of working men could tell of even greater sacrifices and similar tales of their families, except the last. the operatives two or three years after the To these statements I would only add, that if the repeal of the Corn Laws. Well, everyworking classes have no stake and no interest in body knows that since that period the contheir country, they must be wonderful lovers of dition of the operatives has been constantly their country for nothing." improving, and improving at a rate which There is one other point to which I will certainly has not been witnessed since the refer, and that is a point which was raised time of the great French war. Is economy by the bon. and learned Gentleman the in finance a Conservative principle? Is Solicitor General towards the conclusion peace Conservative? I have devoted in of his speech. He referred to the state of this House and out of it whatever enerEurope, and entreated the House, under gies and whatever capacity I possess for present circumstances, to beware what they the purpose of advancing those objects. I were doing with regard to this question. have endeavoured to stand by the rules of Now, I have arrived at an entirely different political economy, and in politics by the conclusion from the hon. and learned Gen-higher rules of a real and true morality. tleman upon that point. In the year 1830 the state of Europe was one of a very remarkable character. The state of France was then extremely unsettled, and it ex-grant, I appear, as I feel persuaded, in ercised a great influence upon the course taken during the next two years by this House and by the country upon the question of Reform. In the year 1848 the state of Europe was again unsatisfactory. I call upon Members of this House to bear witness whether they did not at that time hear from people of every part congratulations of the most decided character upon the fact that two years before the Corn Laws had been abolished, and that one great subject of discontent had been removed from the minds of the people. Let me assure the House then that resistance is not always Conservative. What right have you to assume to be more Conservative in intention than I am? I have a business which is more liable to injury from any disturbance of the public peace than your property. I have a numerous family who depend upon me, and all whose worldly hopes, unless they should become exiles, are bound up with the fortunes of this country. I profess to be in intention as Conservative as you are. I believe that in reality I am infinitely more Conservative, if you will cast your eyes twenty or thirty years forward. Was not free trade Conservative? and yet you resisted it to the last. Why, we recollect a time when the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer used to come down to this House I am not a scholar, or else I should give him a Latin quotation to describe his case-when he used to come down to this House, and tell us with dishevelled hair, of the cruelties that were practised, on what he called the ruined and the same Conservative character. I believe that a real and substantial measure of Reform, which the people of this country would accept as such-I am not speaking now of any particular proposal which I may have made, but which is not at present before the House-I believe in my conscience that such a measure would elevate and strengthen the character of your population. I believe that, in the language of that beautiful prayer which is read here every day, it would tend to "knit together the hearts of all persons and estates within this realm." I believe that it would add authority to the decisions of Parliament; and I feel satisfied that it would confer a lustre, which time itself could never dim, on the benignant reign in which we have the happiness to live. Debate further adjourned till To-morrow. House adjourned at One o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Friday, March 25, 1859. Transfer. Royal Assent.-Consolidated Fund (£1,222,583 8s. 9d.); Consolidated Fund (£11,000,000); Mutiny; Marine Mutiny; Burial Places; Anniversary Days Observance; Inclosure; County Courts. THE IONIAN ISLANDS—SIR JOHN YOUNG. ¡ head of Her Majesty's Government with EXPLANATION. respect to the state of the clock in the tower. That clock was expected to have been long before this of great service to the public, and especially to the gentlemen attending Westminster Hall, but it was not yet at work, although it had been placed in the tower for some time. He was in hopes that on returning from circuit he should have found it at work. The clock had four dials, and he observed on passing the tower that day that the fingers on each dial pointed to different figures. He understood that during his absence on circuit the clock had been at work for half an hour, and he wished to know when it would be permanently at work? EARL ST. GERMANS said, he wished to ask the noble Earl at the head of Her Majesty's Government a question with reference to an observation made by him on the occasion of Lord Grey's withdrawing his Motion for the production of the Correspondence relating to the Ionian Islands. The noble Earl opposite, in acknowledging the courtesy of Lord Grey in withdrawing his Motion, said that the effect of producing that correspondence would be to cast considerable censure upon some persons who would not be in a position to defend themselves. Some of the friends of Sir John Young understood that that remark had reference to him. He (Earl St. Germans) believed that it did not refer to him; but it would be satisfactory to the friends of Sir John Young if the noble Earl opposite would give an assurance that that was so. On the part of Sir John Young, an old Friend and former Colleague of his, he ventured to say that, though acquiescing in the decision of Her Majesty's responsible advisers, he would on no account the reception of the clock in the course of press for the production of papers which, in their opinion, could not be produced without detriment to the public service; but, so far as he himself was concerned, he earnestly desired that every letter and every despatch relating to his administration of the affairs of the Ionian Islands should be published, in order that that and the other House of Parliament and the public might have an opportunity of passing a judgment on every official act of his during his Commissionership of the Ionian Islands. THE EARL OF DERBY said, he was glad to be able to give a satisfactory answer to the question put by the noble Earl. The noble Earl had not quite accurately cited the words used by him on the occasion in question. He believed that he did not use the word " censure," but simply said that Her Majesty's Government could not produce the papers referred to without occa sioning a discussion of many topics which were not then under the consideration of Parliament, which discussion would be detrimental to the public service. He could assure the noble Earl that he did not make the slightest reference to Sir John Young. THE WESTMINSTER CLOCK. LORD CAMPBELL said, he wished to put a question to the noble Earl at the THE EARL OF DERBY said, that immediately after the noble and learned Lord asked a question on this subject on a previous occasion he communicated with his noble Friend at the head of the Board of Works; in consequence of which communication his noble Friend wrote to Sir Charles Barry, who informed him, in reply, that the chamber would be ready for a week or ten day, but that Mr. Denison still required some work to be done in the tower. Since that he had not received any further communication on the subject. DESERTED CHILDREN IN IRELAND. PETITION. QUESTION. THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE, pursuant to notice, presented a Petition from the Guardians of the Tuam Poor Law Union praying that deserted children may be registered as belonging to the religion of the majority of inhabitants of the Union charged with their support; and moved, that there be laid before this House, copy of the letter lately addressed by the Poor Law Commissioners of Ireland to the Clerk of the Tuam Union upon the subject of deserted children in Ireland. The noble Marquess also asked, whether Her Majesty's Government have given their attention to this matter, and have in contemplation any Amendment of the Law concerning it? THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE said, that the proposition that deserted children should be registered as of the religion to which the majority of the inhabitants should belong would be inoperative in the case of those Unions where there was any equal admixture of Churchmen, Presbyterians, and Roman Catholics. It had been proposed that the religious education of the children should be decided by the vote of the Guardians. That, he thought, was objectionable; for a battle would be fought in the board every time such a case came before it for decision, the effect of which would be to cause disunion among the members of the board. There was no statute law on this subject; but he believed the common law was that when the religion of the parents of the child was unknown the child should be brought up in the religion of the State. But in fact the subject had been maturely and carefully considered by the Government, and it was the intention of the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland to introduce into a Bill for the Amendment of the Poor Law in Ireland, which was now in the other House, a clause which would be satisfactory to all parties; but as the clause was not yet settled he did not feel at liberty to state its provisions. He begged to add that in the same Bill it was intended to provide some means to check the enormous mortality among those children. It had been ascertained that five out of every six of these children died before the age of five years; and this frightful mortality was plainly attributable to the guardians not having the proper means in the workhouses at their disposal for the support of very young children when brought to them. THE EARL OF LEITRIM said, the operation of the existing law had been beneficial, inasmuch as Roman Catholic parents, finding that their children, if deserted, would be brought up in the Protestant faith, came forward and maintained them. THE EARL OF BANDON had never heard of any difficulty as to the registry of children in the Union in Ireland with which he was best acquainted. A Judge who was second to none in Ireland had declared that boards of guardians had a right to bring up these children in the religion of the State. It was said that Judge Keogh had given a contrary opinion; but the case in answer to which his opinion had been given had not yet been published. It would, he thought, be found that Judge Keogh's was a limited answer, since it was confined to cases where it was known that these children had been baptized in the Roman Catholic faith. He trusted that no change would be made in what had been the law of the land for centuries, and that the apple of discord would not be thrown among the boards of guardians. The policy of the Poor Law Commissioners, and of all ! who had been interested in carrying out the poor law in Ireland, had been to avoid these religious discussions, and he trusted that a policy would not now be inaugurated which would set parish against parish and neighbour against neighbour. Petition ordered to lie on the table; return ordered. INDIAN FINANCE. MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS. THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH rose, pursuant to Notice, to call the attention of the House to the State of the Money Market in India as affected by recent Notifications: and said,-My Lords, the recent accounts received from India give so serious a view of financial embarrassment and failure that I think it right to call your Lordships' attention to the facts. On the 22nd of January the Four per Cents were at 85, and the Five per Cents at 924; on the 2nd of February the Four per Cents had fallen to 76, and the Five per Cents to 87, being a fall of 9 per cent in the Four per Cents, and 5 in the Five per Cents. My Lords, that the Funds should fall at that moment was the last thing that might have been expected from the political aspect of affairs. Lord Clyde had been successful in Oude; all armed rebellion had been apparently put down; Tantia Topee, the Begum, and their companions, had either sought refuge in Nepaul, or had disappeared in the deserts, and we had had great successes in Central India; everything indicated that a general pacification of the country was at hand; and it is in that state of affairs that the Funds usually experience a rise. It is impossible, therefore, to attribute the great fall which has taken place to any other circumstance than the financial aspect of affairs. This is not a question confined merely to the state of the funded debt of India. I understand that the Bank of Bombay has been in difficulties which rendered it unable to afford the usual convenience of discount to the commercial classes, and commercial houses have thus been compelled to resort to the shroffs, and to give as much as 13 and 14 per cent for the use of money. Not only so, but it is said, and I am afraid with truth, that the Government of India are in such pecuniary difficulties that they have been unable to pay salaries in full and have actually been compelled to pay only what is called subsistence money to the officers of the civil service. I hope this any amount that may be required. 2nd.-For your Hon. Court to remit bullion to the extent of one and a-half or two crores to Calcutta and Bombay, in the proportion of half to each place. 3rd.-To open a 6 per cent loan for cash payments guaranteed for fifteen years, without closing the 5 per cent loan or interfering with the condities are received in part subscription to that loan, tions under which 3, 4, and 4 per cent securiwhereby the Government is virtually paying 6 per cent for the money it borrows. 4th. To issue Treasury notes at Bombay, Madras, and Calcutta for not less than 500 rupees each, carrying interest at 6 per cent per annum, payable at the option of the holders or of the Government after the expiration of two years, and on condition that the said notes will be receivable as cash into the open loan of the day at par, and in liquidation of all demands of Government at the general treasuries of the three Presidencies, as well as in pay report is not true to the extent stated; but | Government to draw bills on your Hon. Court for great apprehension exists on the subject in the public mind. Now, my Lords, undoubtedly this great rebellion must have been attended from the first with considerable pecuniary difficulty. It was found at an early period that the Government would be under the necessity of making alterations in the terms on which they were willing to receive subscriptions to the 5 per cent loan. They were compelled to permit the holders of the 4 per cent loan to pay their subscriptions, one-half in cash, and the other half in the loan at par, thus creating practically a 6 per cent loan. Until they did so very few subscriptions came in, and it was impossible to go on. Your Lordships may perhaps bear in mind that in 1852 or ments on account of salt, opium, and Customs." 1853 a great financial operation was performed by the Government of Lord Dal- The Secretary of State for India in Counhousie. Those who submitted to the re- cil, after considering these alternatives, duction of interest then carried into effect, was induced to adopt the fourth proposifrom 5 to 4 per cent, were under the im- tion. I must confess I think that was a pression that in the then state of India the very unfortunate Resolution. I have seen Government would not be compelled at any no reason why he should not have told the early period to resort to a 5 per cent loan. Government of India to stand fast where But, unfortunately, at the end of sixteen they were to let well alone-to go on reor eighteen months the Government receiving at the rate of £5,000,000 or sorted to a 5 per cent loan; and the consequence was a great reduction in the price of the Four per Cents, and a great degree of discontent pervaded the whole country, and there has ever since been a want of confidence. That being the case, I feel satisfied, from all I have heard, that unless the Government had then determined to permit the holders of 4 per cent stock to subscribe at par to the new 5 per cent loan, it would have been perfectly impossible for the Government to go on. But that permission having been given, no difficulty was felt, and in the course of last year no less than £6,000,000 were subscribed to the 5 per cent loan in cash, and a similar amount in 4 per cent stock. Bullion, to the extent of a million, was sent from England, and bills also to a small amount were drawn on India from this country. But with that exception, by that loan practically of 6 per cent, and by admitting the holders of 4 per cent stock to subscribe, the Government have been able to get through their difficulties. In July last the Government of India addressed a letter to the Court of Directors, stating the amount they required for the ensuing year, and suggesting four modes by which it could be raised. They said : "To us the choice appears to be confined to one of the following expedients:-First, for this £6,000,000 a year, which was as much as might have been expected from the resources of India-and to proceed on the principle of never disturbing the money market, and never proposing a novelty to monied men, except for some great, and palpable, and useful object. Now, it seems to me that the issue of Treasury notes, or what we should call Exchequer bills in this country, is totally inapplicable to India. In this country we have a large amount of floating capital at all times seeking for temporary investment; but even here the Government are anxious lest at any time the amount of Exchequer bills should become inconveniently large. It is different in India, where there can hardly be said to be any capital whatever in search of temporary investment. If this measure had been successful to the full extent by means of Treasury notes it would have resulted in the greatest injury to affairs in India. It would have been an injury, because there are different sorts of banks in that country. In the chartered banks money is placed at call, and at all times the money deposited with them may be withdrawn. Now, if you offer inducements to withdraw that money, the result will be that the banks will be unable to afford the usual mercantile accommodation unless they sell stock, and thereby derange the money mar |