Another Amendment proposed, in as to inspire confidence in its decisions, page 7, line 2, after the word "fit," to independently of any influence brought

MR. GLADSTONE said, that though he retained his former opinion, he did not wish the House to pronounce a final judgment on the question at present; but the opportunity would be given for the fresh consideration of it. In the case of the law courts, although they were not dealing with funds from The Committee divided:-Ayes 199; the Treasury was provided, not with the Exchequer, the concurrent action of Noes 314: Majority 115.

that the hon. Gentleman had been more successful than themselves.

MR. GOLDNEY accordingly read the words which he intended to propose, and, which he thought would have the effect he desired.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN) said, the greatest pains had been taken in the case of advowsons sold under the direction of the Landed Estates Court to ascertain the basis to settle the value of these interests. None of these attempts had been satisfactory; and the Government, therefore, had thought it better to allow the Commissioners to act for themselves, and in case of the lay patrons and the Commissioners disagreeing as to the value of the property, to leave the matter to be decided by arbitration.

views were right. The project of disendowing the Church had been in contemplation for a considerable time, during which no man in his senses would have thought of purchasing an advowson in Ireland. If the Government intended to take an advowson from one man in order to sell it to another the owner ought to receive as much as the Government were going to take. In England, at all events, and he presumed in Ireland also, the following was the simple method of calculation adopted in dealing with advowsons. The net value was first ascertained—namely, the amount arising from glebe lands and tithes, and then a deduction was made in respect of the charges thereupon. A sum was allowed for the cost of a curate, and then so many years' purchase, ranging ordinarily from nineteen to twentyMR. NEWDEGATE complained that five, was taken. This fact was already the Bill contained no provisions for com- before the House in the shape of a Repensating the laity. He could not see turn relating to Lord Westbury's Act, the justice of establishing a basis when which authorizes the sale of a certain it could work favourably for the pur-number of livings in the gift of the chasers, and refusing to establish a basis Lord Chancellor. Indeed, some of them when it would act as a restraint upon fetched as much as thirty-five years' their acquisition. It seemed to him purchase, the calculation being made on that what is just in one case is just in the principle which he had endeavoured to indicate to the House.

another.

MR. GLADSTONE assured the hon. Gentleman that the Government had very carefully considered this question, and had obtained the best information they could respecting the sale of advowsons. If, however, the hon. Gentleman wished it, that information should be put into such a shape that it could be laid before the House; but he was bound to say he did not recommend the production of the records, as he believed they would prove unfavourable to the opinions expressed by the hon. Gentleman. It would be impracticable to fix a scale like that which the hon. Gentleman had referred to.

COLONEL GILPIN remarked that this question appeared to have puzzled even the right hon. Gentleman himself. They had been debating the Bill seven hours. It was then past twelve o'clock, and, to give the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of having the point cleared up, he would move that the Chairman report Progress.

MR. GOLDNEY said, he was really anxious that this matter should be "thrashed out," as he was confident he could prove to the Committee that his

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said, the object of the Government was simply to ascertain the market value of these advowsons, and to give that sum, neither more than less, to the lay patrons. The common-sense method laid down in the clause, to leave the matter to the arbitration of three eminent gentlemen, was the best that could be adopted.

MR. NEWDEGATE said, the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland sat in the House during the time the Incumbered Estates Court was in operation, and consequently he would remember the enormous depreciation of property which resulted from forcing a mass of property into the market at one time. Some properties were then sold at ten or twelve years' purchase or less; and, indeed, he knew of some properties which, by reason of the market being glutted by legislation, were bought at twelve years' purchase, and which were now worth double that sum. The present legislation would produce exactly the same effect on the property of advowsons. They would be forced into the market, and if the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland took the market

2 Z 2 [Committee Clause 18.

price it would have to be taken in a gress. It was undoubtedly for the inmarket unduly depreciated by the act of terest of all parties not to cut short disthe Legislature.

cussion, but to proceed with all rational COLONEL STUART KNOX said, he despatch. As it seemed to be so much hoped the right hon. Gentleman would the desire of the other side of the House remember market value when the clauses that the Chairman should report Prowere reached which related to glebe gress, he should not further oppose a houses and Bishops' lands. Gentlemen Motion to that effect; but he hoped that on that side wanted no favour, but simply hon. Gentlemen who had Motions on the justice, and it was justice which they Paper for to-morrow would give way, so could not get from the other side of the as to allow the Bill to be proceeded with. House.

One of the hon. Members for Suffolk MR. GLADSTONE remarked, that (Mr. Corrance) had a Motion for tothe Government had entirely made up morrow to which he attached considertheir minds on the clause, and he hoped able importance. He hoped that the the Committeee would be permitted to hon. Gentleman would give way. Prodivide upon it at once.

vided hon. Gentlemen kindly waived MR. ĜOLDNEY said he should cer- their privileges for to-morrow evening. tainly press his motion to a division. he could promise that they would have

LORD JOHN MANNERS called at the first night at the disposal of the Gotention to the fact that they had not seen vernment, except in cases of questions of the Amendment in print, and thought urgent necessity, after the Irish Church the discussion ought to be adjourned till Bill had passed through Committee. they had an opportunity of comparing it MR. DE GREY said, he had the auwith the Bill.

thority of the hon. Member for Suffolk MR. GLADSTONE said, if the hon. for stating that he fully intended to proMember had not printed his Amendment, ceed with his Motion. that was not the fault of the Government. COLONEL GILPIN said, the right hon. It might be brought up on the Report. Gentleman was in error in saying that

Motion made, and Question put, “That he had moved to report Progress before the Chairman do report Progress, and the clock struck twelve. The right hon. ask leave to sit again.”—(Colonel Gilpin.)

Gentleman having accepted the adjournment showed that he was not wrong

in The Committee divided :--Ayes 176 ; the Motion he had made. Noes 289: Majority 113.

MR. GLADSTONE said, he would toMR. FITZWILLIAM DICK said, he morrow renew his appeal to the hon. had been the House since noon, and it Member for Suffolk to withdraw his being now half an hour beyond mid- Motion until å day should be given by night he must move that the Chairman the Government. leave the Chair.

House resumed. MR. H. A. HERBERT said, he had also been the House since noon; but he Committee report Progress; to sit thought it was now an early hour for again To-morrow. such a Motion to be made as had just been proposed.

NEWSPAPERS, &c. BILL-BILL 66.] MR. GLADSTONE said, that notice (Mr. Ayrton, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.) not having been given of the Amendment

COMMITTEE. moved by the hon. Member for Chippen

Bill considered in Committee. ham (Mr. Goldney), which raised a point that perplexed the noble Lord opposite

(In the Committee.) (Lord John Manners), the proper and by MR. AYRTON explained that its obfar the most expedient course would be ject was to repeal Acts which had been for the hon. Gentleman to raise the passed in very troubled times, and the question he had brought forward upon necessity for which had entirely passed the Report. He had stated the facts of away. For instance, the first Act recited the case as far as they were at the com- that as the country was at war with mand of the Government, as well as at France, it was necessary to restrain the command of hon. Members, and be- dangerous and seditious publications, fore the hand of the clock reached twelve at the instance of the public enemy, a Motion was made for reporting Pro- and, therefore, very stringent provisions

present Bill.

a

were enacted to prevent the French from intentions, but he feared it did not adopt making use of the public Press of this the best plan to attach officers to the country for their own purposes. They Militia. He would suggest that young might now repeal that Act. Another of gentlemen of the counties should be the Acts was passed for levying taxes attracted to the Militia by the prospect upon newspapers. They had ceased to of obtaining commissions in the Line. levy the tax, and therefore that pro- MAJOR WALKER, while admitting vision ought no longer to be enforced the difficulty of dealing with the subject, against persons who desired to carry on was not sure whether the remedy sugthe business of publishing newspapers. gested by the hon. Baronet would be the Two of the Acts mentioned in the Sche- best that could be adopted. There was dule of the Bill had been already re- little encouragement to join the Militia pealed. The matter had been previously at present, and promotions were now so under the consideration of the House, extremely sluggish that if they were and the House was of opinion that they made slower he thought the Militia ought not to maintain those statutes. would come to a state of stagnation.

MR. WALPOLE said, he thought it MR. CARDWELL said, it would have desirable that some steps should be taken been unjustifiable to ask the House to for the preservation of newspapers in the go into Committee on this Bill if it British Museum, as they were most use- nec

necessarily involved a discussion on the ful for the purposes of reference on the cardinal question of the reserved forces, events of the day. As he understood which was one of the greatest importhat the Secretary for the Treasury in- tance, and had engaged the attention tended to bring in a measure for that of the present Government from the purpose he would give his assent to the time of its formation. Two suggestions

offered in this conversation showed that MR. AYRTON said, that it was his in- the subject was attended with great diftention to introduce a Bill on the subject. ficulty, and the probability was that both

suggestions would have to be adopted House resumed.

to some extent in any really effective Bill reported; as amended, to be con- plan. His object, however, was to ask sidered To-morrow.

the House to consent to the small things

which the Bill proposed, and which were MILITIA BILL.- [BILL 82.]

necessary for the training of the Militia about to commence.

There was power (Mr. Secretary Cardwell, Major Vivian.)

at present to train the Yeomanry and COMMITTEE.

Volunteers along with the regular forces. Order for Committee read,

The 1st clause of the Bill asked for the CAPTAIN STACPOOLE said, that the same power in reference to the Militia. object of the Bill was to provide for the and everybody agreed that it was desigranting of commissions to subalterns in rable that power should exist. As there the army and officers on half-pay who was a great scarcity of officers of Militia, might choose to enter the Militia. particularly of subaltern officers, and

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH said, Officers could be found in the army for that the Bill had his approval except the Militia, the 2nd clause gave power the 3rd clause relating to the

ap-
to attach any

officer of the regupointment of Militia officers for a tem- lar forces to a Militia regiment; but porary purpose. It was necessary to there was not the least desire to force find officers from some permanent source; army officers into the Militia ; and they and, as there was a difficulty in procuring were to be attached only on the requisiofficers, he suggested that half-pay offi- tion of the Lord Lieutenant. The 3rd cers of the army, and those who had clause, which was universally assented served some time abroad, should be ap- to, abolished the property qualification pointed to Militia regiments. He hoped for Militia officers; and the 4th merely to hear from the right hon. Gentleman prevented a Volunteer, who had passed the Minister for War that he was pre- one period of training, availing himself pared to deal with the subject in a satis- of any technical error in attestation. factory manner.

COLONEL BRISE, who had a regiment COLONEL GILPIN said, he had no of eight companies with only eight comdoubt the Bill was framed with the best pany officers, one of whom was on the sick list while another was a Member of this Divorce and Matrimonial Causes, having House, cordially approved the Bill, and been created Baron Penzance of Penif it passed would immediately avail zance in the county of Cornwall-Was himself of the power of requisition. (in the usual manner) introduced. There was considerable difference of opinion involved in the question, and he, ARMY-THE MILITARY FORCE OF THE on a previous occasion, suggested that

KINGDOM.--OBSERVATIONS additional inducements should be offered to gentlemen who contemplated joining LORD MONCK, in rising to call atthe army, to enter first into the Militia, tention to the present condition of the while waiting for their commissions- Military Force of the Kingdom, with a also that a specified number of com- view to suggest means for improving its missions in the regular Army should be efficiency, diminishing its cost, and seperiodically offered to Militia officers to curing more systematic co-operation bebe competed for.

tween the active and reserve branches CAPTAIN VIVIAN said, the Bill was of the Army, said, that the subject was really a Bill rather to amend the law one of so much importance, whether than to affect at all the question of the looked at with regard to the safety of reserve force.

the kingdom or in its financial aspect, Bill considered in Committee.

that their Lordships would not require House resumed.

an apology from any man, who had de

voted time and thought to it, for bringBill reported without Amendment; to ing before them the results of his study be read the third time To-morrow. and consideration. He would premise

that he had no fault to find with the COPYRIGHT (PERIODICALS) BILL. course pursued by the Government, for, On Motion of Mr. Ayrton, Bill for amending as far as they had yet developed any the Law relating to Copyright, so far as regards policy on the question, every step they the delivery of periodical publications at the had taken met with his full concurrence; British Museum, ordered to be brought in by Mr. and the fact mentioned by his right Ayrton and Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. Bill presented, and read the first time. (Bill 93.] hon. Friend the Secretary for War, that

they had to decide on the principles on CONSTRUCTION

which their Estimates should be framed (1864) AMENDMENT BILL. within the first fortnight of their tenure On Motion of Mr. Whalley, Bill for the of Office, was a sufficient reason why they amendment of " The Railway Construction Faci- should not have rushed precipitately into lities Act, 1864,” ordered to be brought in by Mr. larger schemes. No one, however, he WAALLEY and Mr. M.Manon.

sure, would admit more readily Bill presented, and read the first time. (Bill 94.) | than his right hon. Friend the advantage

which a Minister might derive from House adiourned at half public attention being directed to the after One o'clock.

affairs of his Department; and he hoped -should he be so fortunate on the present occasion as to obtain the attention of the House-to elicit from Members,

whose acquirements and abilities renHOUSE OF LORDS, dered them high authorities on the sub

ject, observations which might tend to Friday, 23rd April, 1869.

smooth the path and strengthen the

hands of his right hon. Friend in the MINUTES.)–PUBLIC Bills—First Reading

difficult task which lay before him. He Norfolk Island Bishopric * (73).

(Lord Monck) was no enthusiast for Second Reading-Lands Clauses Consolidation military glory, nor did he desire large Act Amendment * (38).

armaments for their own sake; his as

pirations were of a very moderate chaNEW PEER.

racter; and he should be quite satisfied The Right Honourable Sir James if he could convince himself that we had Plaisted Wilde, Knight, Judge of Her within the country a body of trained men Majesty's Court of Probate, and Judge numerically sufficient to protect us from Ordinary of Her Majesty's Court for the risk of invasion, and an organization

RAILWAY

FACILITIES ACT

was