IMPERIAL GAS BILL (by Order). CONSIDERATION. Order for Consideration, as amended, read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now taken into Consideration." MR. MORRISON moved that the Bill be re-committed to the former Committee. What was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander, and he did not see why the same course should not be pursued in regard to both Bills. He regretted to say that the gas consumers in the metropolis were in this MR. HIBBERT observed that some of the statistics, quoted by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley), made Lancashire look very black in regard to drunkenness; but he did not think that a fair comparison could really be made from the statistics of different towns, because the instructions to the police might not be at all uniform in those towns. There were circumstances, such as the large amount of wages paid weekly, which, to a certain extent, accounted for the statistics from Lancashire. It was creditable to Lancashire that there was, in that part of England, a great desire for education, and that it had taken an early and prominent part in calling at-matter very much like "sheep without a tention to the subject now under discussion. He begged to thank the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary for consenting to the second reading of the Bill, and was sure the Government had exercised a sound discretion in doing so. It was one which had received more support from all parts of the coun-been withdrawn was the very faint suptry than any Bill introduced into that House for many years past. SIR ROBERT CLIFTON moved the adjournment of the debate. Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."-(Sir Robert Clifton.) The House divided:-Ayes None; Noes 232: Majority 232. Main Question put, and agreed to. House adjourned at a quarter HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, 28th April, 1869. shepherd." Last year he introduced a Gas Bill for the metropolis which passed into a law for the City of London, and had given satisfaction to the consumers, and he believed also to the companies. The reason why the clauses extending the Bill to the whole metropolis had port the promoters received from the Metropolitan Board of Works. Great indignation had in consequence been felt throughout the metropolis; and the Metropolitan Board had promised to mend their ways with reference to all future gas legislation. The result was that they appeared by counsel before the Committee on the Imperial Gas Bill; but the counsel having made his speech, calling attention to the legislation of last year with regard to the City of London, left the room; and in the case of the South Metropolitan Gas Bill the Board made no appearance at all. Although the defalcations of Mr. Benjamin Higgs must have been known to the Metropolitan Board of Works, and although it was owing to the appointment of an auditor by the Board of Trade that the defalcations had been brought to light, not one word was said by the Board as to the appointment of a public auditor. This showed a very inadequate sense of duty on the part of that Board. Having made an appearance, they ought to have properly represented the interests of the consumers of the metropolis; but, if it had not been for the attention of independent Members of that House, these Bills would have been allowed to slip through. Under these circumstances MINUTES.-PUBLIC BILLS-Second Reading-gas and passed. * with a view to the incorporation of all objection to the reference of the Bill those clauses to which no possible objec- back to the Committee. tion could be taken with regard to the testing of gas and the auditing of the Amendment proposed, accounts by an official public auditor, To leave out the words “now taken into Con. and also with reference to the question sideration," in order to add the words “re-comof price, and when a reduction in price the insertion of Clauses to make the Bill con mitted to the former Committee, with a view to should be made. In all future legisla- sistent with the provisions of The City of London tion with regard to Gas Bills, the proper Gas Act, 1868,'”—(Mr. Morrison,) principle to lay down, with a view to the -instead thereof. interests of the public, was that which Question proposed, “That the words had been recommended by the Select proposed to be left out stand part of the Committees of 1866, 1867, and 1868, and Question.” carried out in the City of London Gas Act of last Session. MR. LOCKE said, the statement of MR. MONK seconded the Motion. At the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. the same time he could not help thinking Monk), who was Chairman of the Comthat the course taken by the hon. Mem- mittee, was perfectly correct with one ber for Southwark (Mr. Locke), in con- exception. So far as he (Mr. Locke) cert with the hon. Member for Chippen- could understand the speech of Mr. ham (Mr. Goldney), in asking the House Rodwell, the counsel for the Metropolito agree to nineteen new clauses, on the tan Board of Works before the Comconsideration of a Bill which had been mittee, it amounted to this—that the already considered by a Committee up-City Act which was passed last year, and stairs, was not only unusual but wholly was founded on the Report of the Comunprecedented in the annals of Private mittee, over which the present SecreBill legislation. As Chairman of the tary of State for War presided, should Committee he thought the proper course be the model for the Committee on the would have been for the Board of Trade Imperial Gas Bill to act upon. With to be represented before the Committee, regard both to the quality and price of and to have informed them that it was gas the Committee had not acted upon the desire of the Government that the it. The South Metropolitan Gas Comclauses now proposed to be incorporated pany had acted on it, and put the price should be added to the Bill. The Board at 38. 6d., whereas the Imperial Gas of Trade did not appear before the Company charged 48. at present, and Committee. The Metropolitan Board of 38. 9d. afterwards. What he was most Works, who had petitioned against the anxious about was that, in all future gas Bill, were represented by counsel, who legislation for the metropolis, the provicalled the attention of the Committee to sions of the City Act should be strictly two important features in the Bill— carried out. namely, the price of gas and the rate of MR. STEPHEN CAVE observed that interest to be allowed. Both those points the statements which had been made the Committee took into consideration. with reference to these Bills clearly The company had considerably reduced showed the want of some officer to re. the price, and the Committee decided vise Bills which had passed Committees, that it should be still further reduced. and see that they contained nothing conHe should therefore offer a strenuous trary to public policy or the spirit of reopposition to the Bill being re-committed cent legislation. He did not know whefor the purpose of re-considering the ther this point had received the attention price of gas. The Committee also de- of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. cided that the new capital proposed to be Dodson), and whether it would be conraised should bear interest at 7 per cent sistent with his duty to undertake it. in lieu of 10 per cent as proposed by the The duty was performed “elsewhere" company. In regard to the appoint- by Lord Redesdale in a very efficient ment of an auditor, the clause in the manner. Here they found a very strikCity of London Gas Act of last Session ing instance of this want, a Bill having had not been brought to the notice of the come out of a Select Committee with the Committee, as it should have been by legislation of the last three years utterly the Metropolitan Board. With the ex- ignored; and yet the history of that ception he had mentioned, he saw no legislation was sufficiently remarkable. Early in 1866, the Government endea- | accounts, for testing gas, &c., had been voured to improve the quality and lower contrived and set on foot by the Board the price of gas in the metropolis. The of Trade, and inspectors and auditors Government, of which he was an humble had been appointed. It might be said Member, took up the subject where the that the Board of Trade should have previous Government had left it. A watched these Bills. Well, but they long correspondence ensued between the might say very fairly that they trusted Board of Trade, the different gas com- the Metropolitan Board of Works, and panies concerned, and the Metropolitan that would probably be a sufficient Board of Works, the result of which answer to anything that could be said was that the then President of the Board against them. If he had been in their of Trade (Sir Stafford Northcote) brought position, he believed he should have in a Bill'in 1867. What then occurred done the same thing. The Metropolitan would not be easily forgotten. An agi- Board of Works asked for these powers tation was carried on throughout the over the companies, and they were given whole country, and a pressure was put to them by the legislation of last Seson Members which was totally unprece- sion. It might well be supposed by the dented-going, as he thought, far be- Board of Trade that, when the Metroyond the bounds of propriety, and what politan Board of Works were reprewas due to the independence and dignity sented by counsel, all the points would of that House. He was overwhelmed be fully brought before the Committee; with letters accusing him of every sort but, as the Chairman had stated, they of crime. He was told in letters from had not been properly instructed in the shareholders that he was robbing the matter. He quite agreed with the prowidow and the orphan; but they had position laid down by the hon. Member since found out that the shareholders for Southwark (Mr. Locke) as to a model could be robbed most effectually by Bill on this subject. They might, perothers. Then came the Committee pre- haps, pass a Standing Order, or come to sided over by the right hon. Gentleman some understanding that, in all cases in opposite (Mr. Cardwell). Before that which metropolitan gas companies came Committee, the Imperial, the Chartered, for greater powers, the clauses in quesand other companies appeared, and tion should be incorporated in their agreed generally on the whole principle Bills. With regard to price he was of the legislation proposed; but the Bill a little more doubtful. The Chairman was rejected, because they would not (Mr. Monk) had stated that they had come to an agreement with the Commit- considered the question of price; if tee on the question of the back dividends. so, he did not think it necessary that The legislation of last year was more point should be again referred to the successful. The City of London Gas Committee. But he thought that, at Company agreed to propositions made any rate, the House should have an opas to inspection, purity, price, and other portunity of pronouncing an opinion matters. The Chartered Company be- upon it. He quite agreed that the haved very well in the matter; a Bill in clauses as to audit and inspection ought regard to which passed earlier in the to be inserted in the Bills of these gas year containing, by anticipation, the companies, and that the Bills should be conditions imposed by Parliament on referred back to the Committee for that the City of London Gas Company. The purpose. Imperial Company and South Metro- MR. SHAW LEFEVRE said, as some politan Company were wiser in their complaint had been made with reference generation ; they waited till the storm tothe Board of Trade not being representhad blown over, and then brought in ed before the Committee he must point their Bills. The object of Parliament out that the Board of Trade had no locus last year was to secure uniformity of standi before a Committee on a private gas legislation throughout the metro- Bill. No doubt, the question might arise polis, and that would have been entirely whether it was not the duty of the Board defeated but for the vigilance of the of Trade to bring in a general Bill ; but private Members who had called atten- the President of the Board of Trade felt tion to the subject. In consequence of himself entirely precluded from taking the legislation of last Session, an elabo- any action by the recommendation of the rate machinery for the inspection of Committee of two years ago, over which his right hon. Friend, now Secretary of No doubt all the gas companies ought State for War, had presided, to the to be under the same regulations as to effect that, unless terms satisfactory to audit , &c.; but it was distinctly the duty the consumers could be arranged, the of the Metropolitan Board of Works to Board of Trade should abstain from the see that clauses to this effect were inintroduction of any measure similar to serted in the Bill of any company not that which was then before the House. It now under those regulations. The Comhad been represented to the Board of mittee on this Bill, however, could not Trade that the Metropolitan Board of deal with clauses that were not before Works would appear before the Com- them. The Board of Trade were repremittee and watch the interests of the sented before the Committee. The Inconsumers of gas in the metropolis, perial Gas Company were at present of whom they were the natural guar-charging 4s. for gas, although they were dians. It turned out, however, that the entitled to charge 48. 6d., and they conMetropolitan Board had contented them- sented, in accordance with the only Peselves with appearing by counsel, who tition before the Committee, to reduce only made a speech and did not call the price to 38. 9d. There was, there independent evidence; the Committee, fore, no ground for referring the ques. therefore, had only heard one side of tion of price back to the Committee. the question—the evidence of the pro- MR. GOLDNEY said, the hon. Memmoters, and it was not to be wondered ber for Gloucester (Mr. Monk) comat, therefore, that they had come to a plained of the unusual course taken by decision favourable to the promoters. private Members in interfering with the No blame, of course, attached to the decisions of Select Committees. Chairman or to the Committee, but MR. MONK said, he objected unless under the circumstances, their decision it was proposed to re-commit the Bill. having given great dissatisfaction to MR. GOLDNEY said, he had misthe consumers, and being also entirely understood the hon. Member. He had at variance with the decisions of two been induced to give notice of clauses previous Committees in relation to the on this Bill from having had the honour testing of the gas, auditing the accounts, of sitting upon a Committee in 1867, of and other points, only one course re- which the right hon. Gentleman the mained—to refer the Bill back to the Secretary for War was Chairman, which same Committee. With regard to price examined the whole question of the supthe whole question had not yet been be- ply of gas to the metropolis. That Comfore the Committee. No evidence had mittee began its inquiry on the 19th of been laid before them on the part of May, and sat almost continuously up to the consumers. This question ought to the 3rd of August. [Report Aug. 8, be considered, more especially as the Parl. Papers, Nos. 520, 521.] They took South Metropolitan Company in their evidence, and the result was a long and Bill now before the House had reduced elaborate Report drawn up, for the their price. It was considered by the greater part, by the Chairman, and Committee, over which his right hon. which embodied in five heads of ResoFriend the Secretary of State for War lutions that which the consumers of gas presided, that the price of gas could were entitled to ask. The first was that be lowered, and its illuminating power there should be a reduction of price and raised, if there was an amalgamation of an increase of illuminating power; the the companies. If this Bill passed in its price fixed on being 38. 9d. per 1,000, present shape that amalgamation would and the illuminating power sixteen be practically prevented. candles. This was a compromise, the Mr. R. W. DUFF said, he rose, as evidence for the consumer pointing to a member of the Committee, to explain 38. 6d.; but 38. 9d. and the illuminating the conclusions to which they had come. power of sixteen candles were assented The price of gas had been considered to between the companies and those who by the Committee. The only Petition in represented the public, and the date of favour of a reduced price alleged that it January 1, 1869, was named for carryought not to exceed 3s. 9d., and the ing the arrangement into effect. The Committee had inserted a clause pro- next Resolution of the Committee, which viding that, after the 1st of January, was also assented to by the companies, 1871, the price should not exceed 38. 9d. / was that an examiner should be ap a no pointed at the expense of the compa- of the House that this was a public nies, to test day by day the purity and question. The metropolis was at the illuminating power of the gas, and that present paying more than £3,000,000 a a any penalties which might be inflicted, year for gas, and the consumers wero should go in a reduction of the dividend paying a higher price than in any other The third Resolution was in favour of of the largest towns in the kingdom. an amalgamation of the different gas Complaints were constantly made that companies. It was found that there Manchester and Liverpool had better were at that time no less than thirteen gas for 28. 9d. per 1,000 feet. He thought companies which supplied the metropolis, that the Report made, after an inquiry each company having a separate staff of instituted by a Committee of that House, engineers, secretaries, solicitors, collec- and extending over three months, was tors, and other officers, involving a large entitled to some respect. amount of money in salaries and expense Mr. A. W. YOUNG said, he had no of management. The Committee sug- objection to the Bill being re-committed, gested, and it was agreed, that the but he must object to the suggestion of number of companies should be reduced the hon. Member for Plymouth (Mr. to four, who should supply the whole of Morrison) that they were to re-open the the metropolis. The fourth Resolution question of price. He was in favour of was that there should be a public audit a public audit, for, as a gas shareholder of the accounts of the companies by an and gas director, though not in this auditor appointed by the Board of Trade. company, he was anxious for the proThis the Committee were unanimous in tection of his property. The directors of regarding as most essential for the safety gas companies could only look to their and protection of the public, and this auditors to give them in their half-yearly was also agreed to. The fifth was a reports a clean Bill of health. The Resolution limiting the dividends to the tion was that the post of auditor was a profits of each year. It was proved to stepping-stone to that of director, and be essential to the comfort and conve- it must be admitted that the directors nience of the metropolis that the com- usually exercised great influence in their panies now existing should practically appointment. He must, however, prohave a monopoly of the gas, as it could test against the Resolutions of the Comnot be endured that the streets should mittee of 1867 being regarded as the be broken up at the pleasure of every basis of all future legislation on the new company that might come into the subject of gas in the metropolis. An field. The four first Resolutions were, experiment was being tried in the most as he had said, assented to by the com- thickly populated districts, and, if it sucpanies, but they refused their assent to ceeded, it might be adopted by his and the fifth, and the negotiations went off other companies who supplied the more on the question of the back dividends. scattered portions of the metropolis. When the defalcations of Mr. Higgs be- That experiment in the City of London, came known, these questions, and espe- however, might not be quite a fair test cially the necessity of an efficient audit of of what all could do. The shareholders the accounts were forced afresh upon the in gas companies had, he thought, some attention of the public; and he had felt little claim on the consideration of the constrained to take the matter up, as he House. He happened to hold some herewas a member of the two Committees ditary shares, upon which his father rethat investigated these questions, and ceived no dividend for years. The orias two of his then Colleagues were now ginator of lighting by gas died a pauper. Members of the Government, one had He had lately gone over the dividends left the House, and one, his hon. Friend paid upon his shares, since 1825, and the Member for South Warwickshire found that the average was slightly (Mr. John Hardy), was then engaged above 5 per cent. The original sharewith his election petition. He owned holders went into the business under he was surprised to find that the Com- some risk, and even now, besides the mittee, whose Report was before the interference of the Legislature, they wero House, had passed two Bills without at the mercy of any discovery of a supeinserting the clauses which provided for rior illuminating power, which would the protection of the public. He was make their gas works worth nothing glad to notice the feeling on the part at all. |