now.

China and carried on a large and valu-
able trade with her; it then became the
duty of the Chinese Government to pro-
tect that trade against pirates. If our
representatives in China could not by
mere diplomatic action insure the due
observance of our treaties, it was quite
time our relations with China were put
upon some different footing.
If we
were to maintain our treaty rights in
China by force of arms, we should never
be safe from war.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he would not have risen but for the remarks of the First Lord of the Admiralty on the policy of the last Board, in 1866-7, which he had characterized as vacillating.

MR. CHILDERS said, that in using the word vacillation he had alluded to the period between October, 1867, and June, 1868, when the dockyards were first increased by 2,000 and then reduced by 5,000 men.

But there were but few naval offi- MR. LIDDELL said, before the Vote cers who shared in that opinion. The was agreed to, he trusted the Governalmost universal opinion of naval men, ment would afford them some informaespecially those in command at present, tion respecting their relations with was that to keep our fleet, as it was China. He wanted to know whether it now kept, in foreign harbours, might, was necessary to keep twenty-five ships. as his right hon Friend said, make and 2,000 men in China waters? Engour officers good diplomatists-possibly land had entered into treaties with a little too good, but would not make them good sailors. He had said in opening the Estimates that one of the faults he was bound to find with the present state of our Navy was, that while our officers were most gallant and zealous -there were none better in the worldthey stood in need exactly of that kind of training which a flying squadron would give them. His right hon. Friend had also referred to speeches made in the Recess, and had remarked with reference to them that some want of courtesy had been shown to the right hon. Member for Droitwitch, a remark which he would probably have withheld had he reflected. Speaking for himself, he was unconscious of having alluded to the right hon. Baronet in any but the most respectful terms. It was true he had once or twice had occasion to comment upon the policy of the late Boards of Admiralty; and in doing so he had expressed the opinion, which he did not hesitate to repeat, that it was a mistake in 1866-7 suddenly to build a very large number of unarmoured ships when part of that money would have been much better appropriated to building armoured ships. It was a mistake, also, suddenly to discontinue building unarmoured ships and to commence building a large number of armoured ships, spending much more money in a few months than Parliament had voted, and then suddenly to discontinue that work also. All this work should have been spread over several years, and that would have prevented suddenly taking on 2,000 men and afterwards discharging 5,000, a proceeding which had produced a great deal of the existing dockyard distress. It was these sudden fits of building and stopping which had caused all the mischief. He had objected to this policy in 1867, and again in 1868, and he had only renewed his objection during the Recess. Such vacillating policy had largely contributed to the discharge of numbers of men in the early part of last year, and to the consequent distress so often lamented in the House.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he understood, then, that the charge of vacillation was preferred against his right hon. Friend (Mr. Corry), but, as he had taken part in the preparation of the Estimates, he did not shrink from sharing the responsibility of the policy then adopted-on the contrary, he thought it a sound and wholesome policy. Without bringing any charge against the Admiralty that was in power before. 1866, he must remind the Committee that soon after taking Office he had felt bound to state that our fleet had been much neglected, that the Admiralty had not the means of sending out proper reliefs; and he contended that, in the event of war with a maritime Power, nothing would prove more serviceable than the fast-sailing fully-armed wooden ships the late Admiralty had provided for defending our own commerce and assaulting that of an enemy. Possibly the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman had fallen from him in the heat of electioneering time, when perhaps they were not always as nice or cautious as they should be; he had, however, some re

collection of having been charged with extravagance both by the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Prime Minister, but his best answer to that was the admission made recently, when the Estimates were brought forward, that onehalf of the saving shown by the present Estimate was owing to the economical arrangements he had made.

MR. CHILDERS said, that the observations of the right hon. Gentlemen fully justified what he (Mr. Childers) had said. If, instead of, in a panic, building a large number of wooden ships, and then a large number of iron ships, and if, instead of increasing the dockyard men by 2,000, and then suddenly reducing them by 5,000, these operations had been distributed over two or three years, they would have had quite as efficient a fleet and a not less economical administration of the dockyards without the distress which was now deplored on both sides of the House.

SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONE said, the discussion had taken a turn which raised the whole question-Have we yet an efficient fleet? There had been laid on the table a most able Report by his gallant friend Admiral Warden; and any one who studied that Report would be of a very different opinion from the First Lord of the Admiralty as to our having such a fleet. We had ships that would neither sail nor steer, and he be

MR. CORRY said, as the charge of vacillation was made against him, he begged to say that his policy had uniformly consisted in applying every energy of his mind and every halfpenny he could scrape together for the purpose of developing the power of our armour-clad Navy, to which he had added seven vessels, in addition to three ordered by his right hon. Friend (Sir John Pakington), and to rescue the reserves of ships from the deplorable condition in which they had been left by the preceding Government. The reason why he had taken on 2,000 men in 1867 was because he had found that the whole of the reserve left him by the Government that had preceded him in Office was a single fri-lieved the Admiralty did not know what gate, which was the only ship he could have commissioned if a war had suddenly broken out with France or America, and the salvation of the country had depended on it. He immediately set about bringing the reserves up to something like a respectable condition-for he belonged to the old school, having served at the Admiralty with Sir George Cockburn, who could not have slept in his bed if he had not a reserve of thirty line-of-battle ships, some ready, and others in an advanced state of preparation for being commissioned, if the safety of the country should require it. Having obtained the permission of the Treasury, he had at once set to work to bring forward armour-clads for commission, and had put on men to hasten the equipment of the reserves, so that by the time he had left Office he had ready for any service, instead of one frigate, four armour-clads, four heavy frigates, three or four corvettes, and seven or eight gunvessels, and this reserve would have been materially increased, as respects armourclads, if he had continued in Office. He in. The Hercules and the Bellerophon could not understand how giving employment, although temporary, to a body of workmen, could have added to their distress. If his policy had been a vacillating policy, it was one which he hoped the present Government would imitate.

kind of ships they were going to construct. The gist of Admiral Warden's Report was that the ships of the Achilles type were the best ships we had; that we had only four good ships, but they were too large, and that it was reduced copies of this Achilles or Minotaur we ought to build now. Now, however, we were going to build ships without masts, although we knew nothing whatever about such ships. He could only hope and trust that they would soon have a discussion of Admiral Warden's most able Report, and that they would come to some decision as to what kind of ship was to be built in the future. If the fleet were now ordered out to Madeira and back, he believed there would be a week between the return of some vessels and that of the others. [4 laugh.] Hon. Members might laugh, but such a difference in the speed of vessels as would lead to that result was a most serious thing. However, let hon. Members read Admiral Warden's Report, and they would see what a position we were

were, perhaps, the best ships we had, and they were a little handier than others because they were shorter; but they were moved at much greater expense than ships of finer lines, and, therefore, Admiral Warden recommended the

building of reduced copies of the Mino- he feared, to suppose that the Chinese taur. But were we building ships of Government could control the hordes of that kind? It had been remarked that pirates who infested the 3,000 miles of the sum voted for experiments had been Chinese coasts and resorted to the adreduced from £12,000 to £2,000; and jacent islands. They were ferocious and that was not a prudent measure, because skilful; they preyed not only on Chinese there were points in reference to which vessels, but on vessels carrying the we ought to be continually making ex- British and every other flag, and it was periments, until we had arrived at some- our own trade which we protected as thing like a final and satisfactory con- well as the Chinese trade. At the same clusion. Among other things we had time, it was clear that if the Chinese to devise some means of keeping the Government was not able to protect its bottoms of ships clear of barnacles. own coasts, it ought to pay a large Then, the consumption of smoke had subsidy to the Power which provided been too much neglected in the Navy. the necessary defence. Again, we had to develop the hydraulic ADMIRAL ERSKINE said, that withturbine principle, which must in a few out following his gallant Friend through years supersede the screw. The princi- the discussion of the hydraulic principle, ple had been tried with perhaps the and of the best form of ship, he believed worst and the most unseaworthy ship in all the points involved were as yet in the the Navy-the Waterwitch-belonging to experimental stage; and the misfortune a class the two or three other members was that success or failure on one point of which had been smuggled out of the threw no light on the principle of anocountry, had never been heard of since, ther. He thought the discussion showed and probably never would be, because that he was not wrong on Friday night no one would go to sea in them; but when he abstained from giving a perthis trial-touching the greatest question sonal opinion on those points. In spite of the day in regard to motive power of the strong observations made by the had been no experiment at all. It was hon. Baronet the Member for Portswell known that vessels had been worked mouth (Sir James Elphinstone) he voted up to ten knots an hour upon the hy- on Friday night for the building of the draulic principle, and the most eminent two iron-clads, and that fact seemed to engineers of the day declared there was suggest the question whether we were to no reason why a greater speed should be guided in building our Navy by not be obtained with the turbine than minute details relating to ships, or by had been obtained by the screw. With other considerations such as might have the turbine you got rid of the immense induced the hon. Baronet to vote as he swag of the screw and of the fouling of did. It was to be presumed he desired the screw, and the vessel was perfectly to see a ship built at Portsmouth [Sir handy, and if you made sail the motive JAMES ELPHINSTONE: Hear, hear!]; power obtained went to increase the but if we were to adopt a particular speed; whereas, if you made sail with class of ship, let the Committee consider the screw, you had to get up to the the reasons which had been advanced. horse-power of the screw before the sails were any good to you. These were matters upon which experiments ought to be made until conclusive results were arrived at. Again, there was the question of liquid fuel and of the economy that would be effected by the use of oils obtained from petroleum. We could not use the oils at present, because they twin screw had failed. He carefully were inflammable at certain tempera- guarded himself against expressing such tures; but he had the greatest possible an opinion; but what he said was, he confidence that it was in the power of had received an opinion from one of the chemistry to discover some means of highest practical authorities upon the making them available, and the applica- twin screw, and that opinion was highly tion of such oils to the production of unfavourable to it in a vessel with a steam power would be an enormous large draught of water; and not a single benefit to navigation. It was a mistake, word had fallen from any Member

for and against particular classes, and let us abstain from these experiments which were loading the Navy with vessels that would certainly become obsolete, and involving us in expense of which we could not see the end.

MR. GRAVES said, he wished to correct the statement that he had said the

during the discussion of the Estimates | mere experiments and failures. There to remove from his mind the impression could be no reason for injudicious haste, which he had derived from the opinion and he warned the First Lord of the he alluded to. Reference had been made responsibility which would now attach to the twin screw for vessels of light to him. He was glad to find that the and of moderate draught, with which it importance of carrying on board a suffihad answered well; but the only vessel cient quantity of coal- a principle for with a draught of twenty-two feet that which he had always contended — was it had been tried upon was a vessel built being recognized, and that these new for the Dutch Navy; and one of the con- ships were to be capable of carrying structors of that navy told him that seventeen days' coal. At present there which he communicated to the House was in our Navy a great extravagance namely, that the twin screw had failed, in the consumption of fuel, combined and must fail with vessels of a large with a very small space for carrying of draught, for the reasons deduced from coal on board the vessels themselves. the experiments made with the Dutch The Admiralty, for some reason or anoship in question. We had now six or ther, appeared entirely to ignore the seven of those vessels. Two or three principles which were adopted in our of them would be tried in the course of mercantile marine-principles by which a few months, and all he would ask his a large saving of fuel was affected. If right hon. Friend to do was to pause the right hon. Gentleman would grant until their principle had been shown to him a small Committee, he would underwork satisfactorily. These new vessels take to prove that the engines in use in the were only estimated to make 123 knots Navy were in this respect of such a chaan hour, and it was usual for ships when racter that if employed in the vessels betried to go a knot less than the estimate. longing to any public company they would He was quite aware that the twin screw effectually prevent the company from gave a greater power of turning and, if being remunerative. He would simply, it did not interfere with the speed and as an instance of what could be done, steering power, it would be valuable; refer to a vessel that had sailed some but they must remember that with the fortnight since, to which he had already adoption of the turret principle, the called his right hon. Friend's attention. rapid turning of the vessel was a second- That vessel, of 3,000 tons, was on her ary consideration, however important it way to the Pacific - 9,000 miles. She might be in the case of broadside- had reached Lisbon with a consumption vessels. With respect to masts-which of Scotch coal, which was 10 per cent had been alluded to in the course of worse than Welsh coal, of thirty-three the debate the other evening-he be- tons, making the passage at the rate of lieved a vessel, by the proper distribu- twelve knots an hour. If his right hon. tion of weights, could be as safe at Friend would but institute a comparison sea without as with them, although, if between what was done in the mercanthey dispensed with sails as motive tile marine of this country and in the power they must remember that they Navy, he would find that there was would have to place all their reliance something to inquire into. One firm, upon their engines, and if those broke he understood, were now making fifdown the ship would be helpless. There teen engines upon this improved prinwas, therefore, all the more necessity ciple, which only showed that the manathat the machinery should not be merely gers of the mercantile marine had their experimental, but adequate for all emer- eyes wider open that the Admiralty. gencies. Notwithstanding the Vote that Then, with reference to coal, he would was taken the other evening, he believed venture to suggest that a great saving his right hon. Friend would pause be- might be effected by the increase of railfore he went on with these vessels, way communication between some of our though he had obtained the money to collieries and coaling stations. Indeed, build them with. He trusted, at any under the present cumbrous way of rate, that his right hon. Friend would bringing the coals round the coast, it proceed with caution, and satisfy himself cost more, he believed, to coal a vessel thoroughly as to the working of the at Portsmouth than at Malta. A small principle. We have had enough of ex- line of railway run from the existing perimental building-half our ships are lines to Portland harbour would, he be

lieved, be so advantageous that the misrepresented him the other evening. saving effected in the course of a few He would not enter again into the quesyears would more than pay the expenses tion of the turret-ships. With reference which would be incurred. The same to the last part of his hon. Friend's sugthing might be said with regard to the gestion that the Government should coaling depôts on the Thames. He held build ships in Ireland-he would receive it to be of the highest importance that it with the attention it deserved. He arrangements should be made by which could quite understand that his right a continuous supply of coal could be hon. Friend who had preceded him as maintained in cases of emergency espe- First Lord of the Admiralty being himcially, and that ships should not be de- self an Irishman, might have hesitated to pendent, as at present, on the arrival of give contracts in Ireland. [Mr. CORRY: colliers and fair winds. There was We did give a contract there.] It was another point which he wished to urge true that the late Government had given upon the Government. His hon. and a contract for one gunboat in Ireland; gallant Friend (Sir James Elphinstone) but he could quite understand that a advocated the building of vessels at Board on which there were two IrishPortsmouth. He was scarcely surprised men might have a delicacy in respect of at the recommendation made by his hon. giving contracts in Ireland, which the and gallant Friend, but he would sug- present Board, on which there was gest whether it might not be advisable no Irishman, would not have. With to build some of our vessels in Ireland? respect to engines he had already caused The Admiralty got ships built in Scot- an inquiry to be made in consequence land and Wales, and on various parts of of a communication from his hon. Friend the English coast, but they got none built (Mr. Graves), and he could assure him in Ireland; and he asked, why was that any representation he might make that? We had heard a great deal about on a subject with which he was so conwhat should be done for Ireland; and versant would be received in the best in this direction we could confer a ma- spirit by himself and his Colleagues. terial benefit on the people of that country. Ample facilities existed, as might be seen from the splendid 4,000-ton steamers running to Alexandria, which were built at Belfast. In Cork there was a naval yard. As an Irishman himself, and as having had practical experience in this matter, having himself had ships built in the North, South, and centre of Ireland-at Dublin-he trusted his right hon. Friend would not, in dispensing his favours, forget that there were shipbuilding yards in that country fully equal to the work which might be required.