COLONEL BRISE said, he had presented Petitions in favour of the Bill of the noble Lord (Lord Robert Montagu), signed by all classes and sections of politicians. In fact, he stood there with the echo of the Chambers of Agriculture still ringing in his ears, and he did not think that those bodies ought to be spoken disparagingly of in that House; for he thought if there were any bodies whose opinions upon these matters deserving of consideration they were those of the character to which he had referred. The present Bill was an admirable one as regarded stopping the progress of disease; but he looked through it in vain for any preventive a town of the same size and similarly right hon. Friend (Mr. W. E. Forster) situated was exempt, simply because it to remove the injustice of the present had a separate court of quarter ses- compensation clauses of the Bill. sions, whilst Warrington had not. He urged upon the House the unfairness of the definition of a borough under the existing Act, and which was proposed to be continued in the present Bill. It was a most unusual, if not unprecedented interpretation of the word "borough," to exclude towns which had municipal corporations simply because they were assessed to the county rate, and he pressed upon the right hon. Gentleman to restore the clause to the state in which it stood when the Bill of 1866 was first brought in. The hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Anstruther) had misunderstood his hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Mr. J. B. Smith). His hon. Friend, complaining of the burden cast upon Stock-clauses. It would assist in the detection port by the Cattle Plague Rate, had not argued that the compulsory slaughter of cattle was not for the public good, but he contended with much reason that it was a great hardship for Stockport to pay £30,000 for compensation, simply because it had not a separate court of quarter sessions. If cattle were to be slaughtered to stamp out the plague, it appeared to him that the compensation fund should be raised over a wide area. In the Bill of 1866, as originally prepared, there were clauses which provided for a cattle rate, which certainly would afford the fairest mode of raising the amount required for compensation. He (Mr. Rylands) gathered from the remarks of the hon. Member for North Cheshire (Mr. E. Egerton), that he was favourable to this course, and if the agricultural Members pressed it upon Government they would receive the support of many Members representing the boroughs. The other plan of raising a rate-in-aid was to extend it over the entire country. The burden of compensation in that case would be necessarily light, and it would be in every way a fairer course than to charge a heavy amount upon a limited area surrounding the infected locality. He disclaimed, on the part of Members representing boroughs, any hostility to the agricultural interests, and hoped that all parties would unite in supporting such moderate and reasonable proposals as would be for the advantage of all classes of the community. In conclusion the hon. Member again urged upon his of diseases, but when it was too late. They were all interested in the supply of meat to the great body of the consumers, and it was, therefore, necessary that there should be no uncertainty in the great cattle markets of the country, and that there should not be this constantly recurring rise and fall in price. It was highly desirable that the great body of the working classes should have wholesome meat at as low a price as possible. Even the President of the Board of Trade-although he thought the country would not be worth living in if the warehouses of traders were to be inspected to discover fraudulent adulterationswould admit that it was desirable that the working classes should have pure and wholesome meat. No doubt some of the large towns had severely felt the restrictions that had been put on the foreign cattle trade during the last few years. It had been stated by the members of a deputation to the Vice President of the Council from Newcastle that the inhabitants had suffered from the high price of meat. He had, however, consulted the market reports of Newcastle of August and September last, which effectually contradicted the assertion that the market had suffered from the restrictions upon foreign cattle. He objected to this Bill, because, if it passed in its present shape, it would be far better that the Orders of the Privy Council should be issued as heretofore than to put the country to the expense and inconvenience which this measure would cause to the ratepayers in the for mation of committees and the appoint- the wisdom of a Privy Council. He ment of clerks, veterinary inspectors, wished to speak with all respect of both &c. He objected, in the next place, to those public bodies; but, unfortunately, this Bill on the ground of uncertainty. corporations were not always very zealous, Nothing could be more injurious to the and of Privy Councils the wisdom and trade, and this was shown by the evi-energy were not always forthcoming at dence of more than one witness before the right moment. Ho should like to the Foreign Markets Committee. The see in the Bill clauses providing that the strongest argument against a market market should be provided by the Corsuch as was proposed was the loss of poration with the least possible delay; meat likely to be occasioned in hot or that thereupon the cordon now drawn oppressive weather. But already that round the metropolis should be removed; loss was severely felt. At Aldershot, to and that under circumstances of danger which the cattle were taken alive and reasonably apprehended the Privy Counslaughtered, Mr. Baker, a contractor, cil should be bound to enforce its powers. lost £150 in a single day, being unable The hon. Gentleman, in conclusion, sugto get rid of the meat in time. The gested that Clause 58 should be extended dread of disease from foreign cattle so as to cover the case of stables infected was one great cause of the high price of with glanders, and that provisions should meat, and prices would be even higher be introduced into the Bill enabling maif it were not for the large supplies ob- gistrates to punish masters, instead of tained from Ireland-nine-tenths of servants, where the servant was sent out the supplies received by this country with an irregular license, or without any during the last two years having come at all. from Ireland. What the agriculturists, therefore, wanted was a market for the slaughter and quarantine of foreign cattle-with that they would be satisfied, and with nothing less. MR. PELL said, it was too often forgotten that the restrictions complained of had been rendered necessary by the introduction of disease from abroad. Had disease not been so introduced those reMR. DODSON hoped the debate strictions need never have existed. He would not be much further protracted, thought it must be admitted that the rebelieving, as one who represented a gulations which applied to the London constituency interested in keeping the market were of a somewhat absurd cattle plague out of the country, that character. It would not be for the benethe Bill ought to be passed through fit of the country that the healthy Engits present stage and amended in lish cattle should be forced to go to the Committee. The Bill appeared to be same market with the more than suscarefully drawn, and to possess capa-picious foreign cattle. The Cattle Plague bilities of being converted into a good Commissioners in their second Report and comprehensive measure. It was stated that mere inspection was a very a Bill the intentions of which were ex-imperfect defence against disease, inascellent; but, unfortunately, they were much as there were 5,000 or 10,000 intentions only, and there was no se- cattle imported weekly, of which onecurity for their being carried into effect, reminding one of a place popularly said to be paved with good intentions. The Bill had, he considered, good elements, and he believed it could be converted into a measure that would give satisfaction to all parties. The right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill (Mr. W. E. Forster) informed the House that the Corporation of London were prepared to provide a market for foreign animals, and had also given them to understand that the Privy Council were fully alive to the dangers of the re-introduction of the cattle plague, but, unfortunately, these things were left to depend on the zeal of a corporation and half at least were imported by the port of London. The only effectual precaution was to restrict the importation of foreign cattle to certain ports. There was ample business to render a water-side market successful, and the necessary buildings might be erected in a short period of time. The second part of the Bill, which had reference to home-bred cattle he entirely approved of, and he hoped that that part of the Bill would be carried out. MR. HEADLAM agreed that it was not desirable that any protracted discussion should take place on the present stage of the Bill, when no serious opposition was intended, and when the points might be afforded to the First Lord of the Treasury to consider the representations which gentlemen interested in this question intended to lay before him. in dispute were such as could only be | in Aberdeenshire, a very large number dealt with in Committee. He foresaw of cattle were slaughtered by the volunthat there would be a very wide dif-tary action of the owners; not by the ference between the hon. Members who orders of any inspector with legal aurepresented the rural districts and those thority. Moreover, there were no docuwho supported the interest of the towns. ments in existence to show the circumIf he took the view of some hon. Gentle- stances under which those cattle were men opposite, that the English beasts slaughtered, or their number, or their were healthy while the foreign beasts value in money. How, then, could the were affected largely by disease, he Government determine what compensawould be prepared to prohibit the im- tion should be given? He appealed portation of the latter altogether. He, to the right hon. Gentleman the Vicehowever, did not hold that view, because President of the Privy Council to alhe believed that, as a rule, the foreign low ten days or a fortnight to elapso beasts were as healthy as those of this between the second reading and the Comcountry. As a representative of the con-mittee on the Bill, in order that time suming interest, he could not assent to the proposal of hon. Members opposite that the importation of foreign cattle should be conducted under circumstances which would be fatal to importation altogether. He believed that the existing restrictions upon the importation of foreign cattle were diminishing the amount of the food of the people. The price of beef in the North of England was raised at the present time as high as 10d. a pound in consequence of these restrictions. They ought not to apply one rule to foreign cattle and a different one to home cattle. He was perfectly willing that the Government should have power to temporarily prohibit the importation of foreign cattle from suspected places; but he strongly objected to any permanent restrictions upon the trade like those suggested by hon. Members opposite. LORD ROBERT MONTAGU said, that having already tried their strength with the Government upon this subject it was unadvisable to repeat the experiment upon this stage of the Bill, more especially as it had been decided that a deputation of persons of influence should wait upon the Prime Minister to ask him to give an impartial consideration to their views, and to endeavour, as far as possible, to meet them without infringing on the interests of others. The late Government were extremely anxious to relieve Cheshire from the hardship which had been inflicted on it by the loss of so large a number of cattle; but after repeated endeavours and careful considerathey had found it impossible to do so. The Bill under which compensation was given was the same as that which authorized the slaughter of cattle on the order of inspectors. Now, in Cheshire, as well as MR. CHADWICK said, the Members for Cheshire were determined to oppose the measure unless justice were done to those who voluntarily slaughtered their cattle as the best means of stamping out the plague. The legislation on the subject of the cattle plague had been hasty and crude, and it had inflicted hardship on Macclesfield and other towns in which there were no quarter sessions. He protested against the exemption of boroughs with quarter sessions from the cattle plague rate. The cattle voluntarily slaughtered must be paid for out of the national rates, and he claimed that the Irish Cattle Plague Act should be applied to Cheshire. MR. J. HOWARD said, the measure before the House was one of great importance, both with regard to the agricultural interest and the British public, and he desired therefore to consider the subject apart from the bias or prejudice of party spirit. Referring to the remarks of the right hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Headlam), he reminded the House that the cattle of this country were liable to ravages by disease before the introduction of the rinderpest, and denied that the normal condition of the cattle of England and the Continent was the same. Until 1842 nothing was known in this country of pleuro - pneumonia. During the six years preceding 1861 we lost 65,000 head of cattle by that disease, and during the six years up to the period of the cattle plague we lost 960,000, or nearly 1,000,000 of cattle, by the same disease, whilst the whole of the imports during that period amounted to only about half that number. An eminent story to either side of the House, nor to veterinary professor had stated that in scarcely any interest in the country. On 1862 alone £2,000,000 worth of cattle the one hand, complaints were made by was lost by pleuro-pneumonia. He men- borough Members that the present retioned this to show that the Government strictions on importation interfered with had acted wisely in the interest of the trade, and raised to some extent the British farmer and the consumer in le- price of meat; while, on the other hand, gislating for “stamping out" foreign as there was a strong expression of opinion well as home disease. Our dependence on the part of the agricultural interest for our meat supply on foreigners was that the cordon put round London in very small compared with our own pro- order to prevent the spread of disease duction. The cattle of the United King- was a very great interference with their dom amounted to 10,000,000, of which, trade, and, as they considered, an unjust including calves, 2,500,000 were slaugh- restriction. It was also felt that it was tered annually, giving about 650,000 tons desirable to consolidate the laws on the of meat. There were about 35,000,000 subject, and to extend the restrictions to of sheep and lambs, of which one-half other diseases. Consequently, the prewere slaughtered, giving 450,000 tons sent Bill was brought forward. The of meat. In 1865 the estimated weight Privy Council felt that it was necesof meat imported from the Continent sary to take powers sufficiently great was 55,000 tons, less than 5 per cent of to check diseases, but no more. 5 It the consumption. It was clear, there was no doubt true, as his hon. Friend fore, that an immense proportion of our the Member for Bedford (Mr. J. Howard) meat was of home breeding, and it be had stated, that, taking the whole counhoved the Government, therefore, to try, the foreign importations bore a very guard our own flocks and herds against small proportion to the home production disease by the introduction of foreign of cattle; but, still, the proportion of animals. Let this measure pass, and let foreign cattle was very great in the there be separate water-side markets es- London market. In reply to the right tablished, and the increase alone in the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Headsupply of home produced meat would lam), he might remark that unless the soon more than double that of the whole Government took the medium course of supply sent us from abroad. admitting cattle from certain countries MR. W. E. FORSTER said, in reply on condition that they should be slaughto the noble Lord the Member for Hunt- tered at the port of debarkation, it would ingdonshire (Lord Robert Montagu) that be necessary to prohibit the importation the Government had no intention of pro- of a large number of cattle which might ceeding with the further consideration of be advantageously brought into the the Bill at an earlier date than he had country. He had carefully watched the mentioned. Indeed, it would hardly be debate, but had been unable to ascertain possible to bring it forward within a the precise difference between the views fortnight; but although there was a of the Government and those advocated great dislike on both sides of the House by the representatives of the agricultural to its being proceeded with in undue interests. He had failed to discover it haste, an equally strong desire prevailed was really thought that, instead of taking that there should be legislation on the power to compel cattle from certain counsubject during the present Session. Full tries to be slaughtered at the port of time would, however, be given for its debarkation, the Government ought to consideration by the country. The hon. draw a hard and fast line, and insist Member for Suffolk (Mr. Corrance) that all foreign cattle-from whatever seemed to have a false view of the in- country they might come-should be tention of Government. He seemed to slaughtered on landing. Unless hon. Genthink that the Privy Council were anxious tlemen took that line he did not see how to obtain fresh powers, but this was by they could decline the propositions of no means the case. Power had been the Government. Would they exclude actually forced upon the Privy Council the Spanish, the Danish, or the French during the last few years, as danger cattle ? France never had the diseaso from diseases imported from abroad was except amongst a few yaks and zebras more and more apprehended. The exist in the Bois de Boulogne. France was a ing condition of affairs was not satisfac- great agricultural country, and yet the Question put, and agreed to. Bill read a second time, and committed for Thursday 22nd April. NEWSPAPERS, &C. BILL. tain enactments relating to Newspapers, PamOn Motion of Mr. AYRTON, Bill to repeal cerphlets, and other Publications, and to Printers, Typefounders, and Reading Rooms, ordered to be brought in by Mr. AYRTON and Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 66.] SUNDAY AND RAGGED SCHOOLS BILL. On Motion of Mr. CHARLES REED, Bill to for gratuitous instruction, ordered to be brought exempt from rating Sunday and Ragged Schools in by Mr. CHARLES REED, Mr. BAZLEY, Mr. GRAVES, and Mr. M'ARTHUR. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 67.] House adjourned at a quarter after One o'clock. French Government did not exclude fo- | ports of debarkation, and they did not reign cattle. On the contrary, France, believe that that would entail any possirelying on precautions, was a large im- ble loss to the consumer. porter of cattle, principally from those countries which we sought to exclude. Some hon. Gentlemen insisted on separate markets; but it was easier to insist on separate markets than to get them. As regarded, however, the metropolis, the Corporation of London had undertaken to erect a market to meet the demands of the case, and he had no doubt that they would carry out their promise. The Government would be very glad to give full time for Amendments to be considered to the Bill, and proposed in Committee, but he did not believe, when it came to the point, that they would go much beyond what the Bill did. It was really an unpleasant thing, he might remark, for the Privy Council to have discretionary powers forced upon them. The responsibility was very heavy, and very little credit could be got, even if those powers were well used. What would happen if they tried to fence the power which was given to the Privy Council with conditions? Why, that the Government would get rid of the responsibility which would then fall on the House. He had heard one or two hon. Gentlemen ask, why should there be any uncertainty? The reason was because disease was uncertain and circumstances were fluctuating. The matter, therefore, came to this-Was the House, or was it not, to give any discretion? They could refuse to give discretion only by killing all the animals at the port of debarkation, for which public opinion was not ready, and by making separate markets, for which they had not funds. He would not detain the House any longer, but simply say that it was the desire of the Government that all these things should be debated in Committee, and that full time would be given for Amendments. As to compensation, the question divided itself into two parts, as regarded the past and the future. He wished it to be understood that hon. Members who assented to the second reading would not thereby be precluded from endeavouring to obtain what they might consider a better system of compensation for the past, as well as establishing sound principles for the future. SIR GEORGE JENKINSON said, that what he believed the agriculturist wanted was compulsory slaughter at the VOL. CXCV. [THIRD SERIES.] HOUSE OF LORDS, Friday, 9th April, 1869. MINUTES. PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading- 2 IRELAND-SALES OF TITHE RENT CHARGE, ADVOWSONS, &c. MOTION FOR RETURNS. THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE moved that there be laid before the House "1. Return of all sales of impropriate tithe rent charge in the Landed Estate Court (Ireland) for the last ten years, in a tabular form, distinguishing the title of the proceeding in which each sale was had, the date of such sale, the annual amount, of such tithe rent-charge, and stating the parish and the amount of the purchase money respectively and county within which the same is payable: "2. Return of all sales in the Landed Estate Court (Ireland) of advowsons for the last ten years, in a tabular form, distinguishing the county in which such advowson is situate, the age of the incumbent at the time of sale, the building charge (if any) on the glebe house, and the amount of the purchase money of such advowson: Q |