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favourable to that principle than I am, services of the country; but I do not I certainly shall not be able to give my think it would be a wise or statesmanvote for the Motion.

like course on the part of this House to COLONEL SYKES said, he had been a say, in an imperative way, by a ResoMember of the Committee which investi-lution to the Government-"You shall gated the subject of appointments in adopt exclusively and absolutely the May, 1860. Some scandalous abuses of principle of open competition in all patronage were brought before them in branches of the Civil Service," unless the Registrar General's Department upon you are prepared to do more than that, its formation; in one case it was stated and to indicate the manner in which the that a lunatic had been appointed to a principle can be practically carried out. clerkship, and in another a greengrocer. I must say that if reform in this matter They had several instances of that has not advanced so rapidly as it seemed kind of objectionable appointments on likely some years ago, I think it has account of age, broken state of health, mainly been owing to the fact that pubproper qualifications, and even bad cha- lic interest in it has not been awakened racter, and the Committee came almost to the extent which one might have exunanimously to the conclusion that, at pected. When I was the India Office all events with regard to the introduc- eleven years ago, I tried the experiment tion into the service, there should be some of opening some clerkships to absolutely proof given that the person appointed open competition. Well, there was a

. should have certain mental qualifica- very large number of competitors, but tions. Appointments in India had been those who succeeded, I believe, were thrown open to competition, owing in a neither above nor below the average of great degree to the efforts of the right gentlemen who ordinarily fill similar hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the situations; but I did not find that any Exchequer, and the experiment had greater interest was felt in the matter, proved highly successful. The standard or that any great encouragement was of mental acquirements, he believed, given by the public to the repetition of were higher there than among the civil that experiment. I quite agree, too, servants of any other country. The with what was said by the Chancellor present Government were very favour- of the Exchequer that, if you are to able to the principle of competition, but throw open the Civil Service to competiat present they seemed indisposed to tion, you must make the prizes worth givo effect to it. If, therefore, the hon. having, and you cannot do that unMember for Brighton (Mr. Fawcett) less you separate the more mechanical pressed his Motion to a division, hé from the more intellectual part of the should vote with him; for he could only duties. It is really a mockery to throw mean by his Motion that the qualifica- open examinations, to invite everybody tions of candidates were to be tested to come in and take part in them, before they were allowed to enter the and to establish a standard of merit, if service.

the rewards which the successful are to LORD STANLEY: As I was Chair- obtain are little better after all, if not man of the Committee which sat some actually less in amount, than those years ago upon this subject, I may be which could be obtained by the same allowed to join in the appeal which has persons in ordinary private business. been made by the Chancellor of the Ex- merely wish to add a word upon anochequer to the hon. Member for Brigh-ther part of the question. I always ton (Mr. Fawcett). I decidedly think felt-Iong before I had anything to do that if the hon. Member were to divide with the Foreign Office — very consithe house upon this Resolution he derable doubt whether the case of the would place many of us in a false posi- Diplomatic Service and that of the tion, who like myself are generally fa-Civil Service stood in this matter upon vourable to the principle of the Resolu- the same footing. No doubt diplomacy tion, but who are not prepared to adopt does require some qualifications which it in quite so sweeping and unqualified you

can test in the ordinary way a forin. I have always thought, and I by examinations, but it also requires do think now, that a great deal may be other qualifications, which one may say done in the way of extending the princi- without any disrespect, you are not plo of competition in the administrative quite certain to find in men who, by their own unassisted industry, have that instead of an increased adoption of raised themselves from a very humble the competitive system it was less widely social position. There is also this con- enforced of late years than in 1856-7. sideration. If you were to apply this The Committee that sat in 1860 reported Resolution to the Diplomatic Service that the Civil Service should be thrown you would exclude yourselves from em- open for competition to the whole of the ploying in that profession anyone who Queen's subjects—subject only to certain ħad not been exclusively trained to it. conditions as to age, health, and other No doubt that has been our system of qualifications, and he scarcely thought late years and under ordinary circum- that the terms of the present Resolution stances it has worked well. But it is would be found stronger than that. He one thing to adopt a system ordinarily, doubted whether the terms of the present and another to tie yourself down to it Motion were stronger than those of the by a Resolution, so that you will never former Motion on the same subject, to be able to depart from it. I hope tho which several Members of Her Majeshon. Gentleman will be content with ty's Government were pledged. He rehaving raised this question. If he di- garded the speech of the Vice Presivides the House, feeling as I do upon dent of the Committee of Council, who the subject, I shall not be able to oppose was speaking as the mouthpiece of the him ; but, on the other hand, neither Government, on the second reading shall I be able to vote in favor of the of the Endowed Schools Bill, during Resolution.

the present Session, as containing more MR. DILKE said, he thought the than a mere promise that the Governnoble Lord, the Member for King's ment would do something at an indefiLynn (Lord Stanley), took somewhat too nite time. The objection that it was high a view of a vote of that House if he necessary to separate the merely mesupposed that it would preclude the chanical from the intellectual labour in Government from employing anyone in the Civil Service was, no doubt, very the Diplomatic Service who had not ob- important; but the gentleman who first tained entrance into the Service by open suggested that alteration (Mr. Horace competition. It was a remarkable fact Mann) was of opinion that they could that Resolutions very similar to that be- not only effect that separation without fore them had been on two former difficulty, but that it would be better at occasions carried through the House in once to adopt open competition with it. favour of open competition, and that the If the Motion went to a division ho reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer should vote with the hon. Member who was almost the same reply that was given brought it forward. thirteen or fourteen years ago by the MR. GLADSTONE: I do not rise, late Sir George Lewis. When the Sir, for the purpose of adding anything present Premier pressed Sir George to the able statement of my right hon. Lewis at that time he asked for a delay Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of one or two years—"Let us wait,” he but I am very desirous of undeceiving said, “ till we see how the principle of the House—and, I am persuaded, the open competition works in India.” The hon. Member for Chelsea (Mr. Dilke) Chancellor of the Exchequer had shown himself-with regard to the nature of by a passage from the Queen's Speech, the discussion which took place upon this in 1854, the interest which was taken in subject in 1856, both as respects the this question by the right hon. Gentle- terms of the Motion the House was then man now at the head of the Government. called upon to adopt, and as respects the But, in 1856, a Resolution was moved by manner in which that Motion was met the present Lord President of the Coun- by the Government of the day. I would cil, seconded by the right hon. Baronet, remind the House to begin with that, as the Member for North Devon, and sup- my right hon. Friend has stated, many ported by the present Prime Minister, Members of the Government have dewhich, though not perhaps so sweeping clared opinions on this subject very much in its terms as the Resolution now before in the direction of the views held by the House, equally pressed the Govern- the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. ment of that day to adopt the principle Fawcett). They have not altered those of open competition. If the statistics opinions; they are desirous to move forof the Civil Service Commission were ward in that direction, but they appeal looked into, however, it would be found to the House whether, during the four

months they have held Office, they have joined issue upon the principle itself. I been idle. The measures which have find near the commencement of his been submitted to this House have pro- speech upon this Motion the following bably been as considerable as ever were sentence :submitted by a Government during a “I wish to argue the question simply upon the period equally short after their coming ground of efficiency of the public service; wheinto Office; and if the House desires to ther the principle my noblo Friend seeks to inhave work well done, there must be of the Crown more efficient than it has been here

troduce will or will not render the Civil Service some regard as to the quantity of it tofore—ihat is the issue I wish to raise.” which is to be undertaken in a given Therefore, Sir George Lewis disputed the time. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down is under the impression noble Friend then was-that the principle

proposition of Viscount Goderich—as my that the answer just given by my right of open competition was calculated to inhon. Friend is parallel to an answer

crease the efficiency of the Civil Service. given, in 1856, to a Motion which he It was under these circumstances that thinks is parallel to the present one. I

those who were friendly to the Motion have hastily referred to the Motion of

were obliged to go forward with the disthat date in order to ascertain its terms, cussion, and that the House carried by and I have also referred to the answer

a majority of 21 the very moderate, given by the Government on that occa- cautious, and qualified Address which sion, and the answers are so different

was then submitted to its consideration. that I am sure the hon. Member him- Therefore I am bound to say, and I really self was not at all aware of the amount think that the hon. Gentleman who has of difference between them. You are just sat down will agree with me, that called upon to-night to accede to a Re- the circumstances of the former Motion solution which states that all appoint- are, in every material point, as different ments — making no distinction of rank whatever-in the Civil and Diplomatic --that the proposition which the House

as they can be from those of the present Services ought to be obtained by open was asked to adopt was wholly different, competition, with no exceptions under and limited as it was, it was met with any circumstances, and no discretion being left to the executive or to the doubtedly—and I hope that what I am

open opposition. Since that time unheads of departments. Now, what was about to say will not in any way be misthe Motion moved by my noble Friend understood the arguments in favour of Earl de Grey and Ripon in 1856. It was an Address to Her Majesty, rather proceeding further in the direction of

open competion have, in my judgment, a long one. I need not read the whole gained a material accession of force ; of it, but the operative part is as fol- partly because the experience we have lows:

obtained of open competition, so far as “ To assure Her Majesty of the steady support I am qualified to judge of it, is of a faof this House in the prosecution of the salutary vourable character, and partly on acmeasures which She has been graciously pleased count of the important Act which was to adopt, and humbly to make, known to. Per passed by the House of Commons last Majesty that if She shall think fit further to extend them, and to make trial in the Civil Service year, which placed the Members of this of the method of open competition as a condition House in a much more direct political of entrance, this House will cheerfully provide relation with the members of the Civil for any charges which the adoption of that sys- Service than they had ever occupied tem may entail."- [3 Hansard, clxi.]

before. I think that my hon. Friend I think that was a very moderate and the Member for Brighton and those who judicious Motion, and I believe in say- support him, as well as the whole ing that I am paying a compliment both House, naturally feel, after the Act has to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and been passed which gives the franchise to to myself, for unless I am much mis- the Civil Service at large, an increased taken, we at the time had some hand in anxiety for an alteration in those very it. But instead of being met on the direct relations which have herertofore part of the Government with a declara- subsisted between the Members of this tion that the Government concurred in House individually and the disposal of the principle upon which the Motion was first admissions to the Civil Service. I founded, as the hon. Gentlemen appears mention that circumstance to-night as a to think, I find, on referring to the matter that the Government are perspeech of Sir George Lewis, that he fectly alive to, and which they will cer

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tainly bear in mind when they proceed that the right hon. Gentleman had now to take this matter into their considera- made himself master of it, and would tion. But my right hon. Friend has be able to answer his Question. The stated no more than the truth when he subject was one of great importance to says that we should run a risk of doing the administration of justice in Ireland, mischief instead of good if we were to especially in the province of Ulster, place the adoption of the principle of in- where he was sorry to say strong party discriminate open competition before and religious feelings prevailed. At the that which is an indispensable prelimi- last Assizes for Monaghan there were nary-namely, a thorough re-organiza- several trials arising out of the disturbtion of the Civil Service, with a view to ances which took place on the 13th of a division being made between the July. Among these trials there were merely mechanical and the intellectual ) those of an Orangeman named Baird, work. And inasmuch as the Government his son, and another party, who were do not wish to subsist upon promises charged with the murder of a to the House, but rather upon labour in named Hughes, who was a Roman Caa practical form, we cannot undertake tholic. Indictments were also found to concur in any votes that would for against a large number of Roman Caour part end in promises only. We trust tholics and against seventeen or eighteen the House will give us a reasonable Protestants, for riots and assaults arising time to see whether we are or are not out of the same transactions that led to disposed to act upon the principle we the murder; and there were also inforhave previously announced. It is fortu- mations taken against a number of

pernate that the Motion of the hon. Mem- sons for violating the Party Processions ber is not a distinct Motion, but an Act, but these were not brought to trial. Amendment to the Motion that you, Sir, Also, at the same Assizes, a man named do leave the Chair. We shall, there- M‘Kenna, a Roman Catholic, was tried fore, without giving any opinion adverse for the murder, in November last, of one to the terms of the hon. Member's Mo- Clark, a Protestant; but this occurred tion, although we regard it as being too in a hotel, and not during a riot. Now, wide, vote that the House resolve itself he had to inform the House that, in the into Committee of Supply in order that year 1866, also at these Assizes of Monawe may take the Vote for the Miscel-ghan, an Orangeman named Gray, who laneous Services, which the public in- bore rather à notorious character in terest requires.

Ulster, was tried for the murder of a Question put, “That the words pro

Catholic named Shevlin, who was shot posed to be left out stand part of the at the election of 1865, and four witQuestion."

nesses swore that it w Gray who fired

the fatal shot. But he was acquitted. The House divided :-Ayes 281 ; Noes He was defended by an able and learned 30 : Majority 251.

Gentleman, who was then an eminent
Member of this House

the present IRELAND-JURY PANEL, MONAGHAN Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench in

ASSIZES.-OBSERVATIONS. Ireland. On Gray's trial not one of the MR. DOWNING said, he rose to call twelve jurymen was a Roman Catholic. the attention of the House to the pro- A Mr. Crawford was foreman of the jury. ceedings in the criminal trials of “The Some strong articles were written on Queen against Baird,” “The Queen Gray's acquittal in the English journals,

' against M-Kenna,” and “ The Queen and the subject was brought under disagainst Sheridan and Others,” in the cussion in that House, the present Atcourse of which, on a challenge to the torney General for Ireland declaring array, the jury panel was quashed, on that Shevlin's life was wantonly taken the ground, among others, that the said without provocation, and that his death panel had been partially and improperly was as clear a murder as ever was comarrayed by the sheriff of said county; mitted. The panel from which the jury and to ask questions in reference thereto was taken by which Gray was acquitted of the Attorney General for Ireland. consisted of 300, a larger number than He had already postponed this matter was ever before known in Monaghan. at the request of the Attorney General But among them there were only sixtyfor Ireland, who wished to be further seven Roman Catholics. The population informed on the subject, and he hoped of Monaghan consisted of 90,000 Roman

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Catholics, and 30,000 of all other deno-tholics who were tried before Mr. Justice minations, or three Roman Catholics to Lawson were convicted of an assault, one Protestant. The panel was four not of a riot. One of them was senProtestants to one Roman Catholic. The tenced to two years' imprisonment with manipulation of that jury, and of the hard labour. Two others were sentenced jury which tried the case in the last to eighteen months' imprisonment, and Assizes, was so self-evident, that he the four women were sentenced to twelve thought the House would agree with months'imprisonment with hard lahim that the jury system in Ireland re- bour. In the other Court two persons quired amendment. Out of the first were tried for the murder of Hughes, forty-eight names on the panel that tried and they were acquitted. There were Gray, who was an Orangeman, only two twelve Orangemen and not a single were Roman Catholics. Out of the first Roman Catholic on that jury. On sixty-nine names only three were Roman that trial a policeman named MacCatholics; but then to show the libe- donald stated that he did not try to break rality of the sheriff, in the next forty- into the house, because he might have eight names there were sixteen Roman been shot himself, but he went to the back Catholics. It was, of course, intended, of Baird's house and asked them to stop and was sure to be the case, that the the firing. He did not go into the jury who tried Gray were taken from the house to see who was firing, for soon first forty-eight names. The sheriff of this after the man was shot the firing ceased. year took a most active part in the elec- At the opening of the Assizes the Judge tion at which Shevlin lost his life, though, charged the grand jury, and stated, that in 1838, he had been dismissed from the ho could not understand how, in a promagistracy on account of partiality. At claimed district, men carried arms who the trial a person of the name of Mitchell had no licenses, and that the adminiswas sub-sheriff. Now it was worth tration of justice in that way was destating that up to 1862 or 1863 Orange- fective. M'Kenna was put on his trial ism was not known in Monaghan, and the next day. He was defended by two the people lived together on the best of very able Barristers. Mr. Butt put in terms; but at that period the Rev. Dr. a challenge to the array on five issues. Bayley was appointed to the rectory of Four of them were traversed by the Monaghan, and an Orange lodge was Crown. One was admitted—that the subestablished, of which he believed Dr. sheriff was an Orangeman. The issue Bayley was the chaplain. On the 1st of that went to the jury was this–Did the July last year an Orange flag was hoisted sheriff, in contravention of his duty, to on the steeple of the church—which he which he was sworn, act as a partizan ? (Mr. Downing) thought was a desecra- The jury found that he did, and the contion of the House of God—and this flag sequence was that the panel was quashed. remained flying till the 12th. The 12th That was the conduct of the sheriff of was a Sunday, but on the 13th, which Monaghan, and he would state to the was a fair day, a band of Orangemen House the consequences arising from marched into the town with drums and that finding. In charging the jury the banners, and it was quite clear that a Judge said that it was no matter whecollision was inevitable. A collision did ther the sheriff or sub-sheriff was an take place. The Orangemen entered Orangeman, for that was no disqualifithe Orange Hall and Baird's house, cation. In point of law that might be where they had arms, and commenced correct, but he recollected many magisfiring on the crowd, and Hughes, an trates having been removed from the innocent man who was standing in the Commission of the Peace because they street, was shot. After that an as- had declared themselves Repealers. sault was made by some of the Roman When Mr. Roche, the father of Lord Catholic party on a man named Wilson. Fermoy, was appointed sheriff of Cork, For that assault seven persons were in- an objection was raised in the Dublin dicted, and among them four women. Mail that he was a Repealer, in conseA large number of Catholics were in- quence of which the Lord Lieutenant dicted for riot, and seventeen Orangemen wrote to that gentleman inquiring if he were indicted, and were to be tried at was. Mr. Roche, as every high-minded the same Assizes, at which Judges Lawson man, declined giving a reply to the and Morris presided, for whom he en- question, although he was no Repealer, tertained personal esteem. The seven Ca-1 and the consequence was that he was