adjoining owner, showed this strip un- could recoup themselves by bringing an coloured. The mistake was to be re- action for damages against the person gretted, but he did not think it properly who had benefited by the mistake that described by the term "robbery.” It had been made. should be remembered that during the operation of the court, which had con

Main Question, " That Mr. Speaker do veyed millions of property, these mis- now leave the Chair,” put, and agreed to. takes had been of the most trivial character, this being, perhaps about the SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES. second or third which had been dis

VOTE ON ACCOUNT. covered. The remedy now suggested

SUPPLY considered in Committee. was an amendment of the law, but the only amendment that could be adopted

(In the Committee.) would have the effect of rendering the MR. AYRTON, in moving that a sum title disputable. Now, it would be little of £1,586,800 be granted to Her Mashort of a national calamity if, on account jesty on account of those services, said, it of a mistake with regard to some 49 or would be desirable that he should re50 perches of land, the validity of titles deem the promise given by the Chancelunder the Incumbered Estates Court lor of the Exchequer when the hon. was impaired.

Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. MR. HUNT said, he knew nothing of Hunt) desired an explanation of the the case until he had just heard it ex- difference between a statement appearplained, but he must say it appeared to ing in a Paper on the table of the him that a flagrant robbery had been House and that made by the Chancellor committed. The right hon. and learned of the Exchequer in reference to the Gentleman admitted that there had been amount of these Estimates. The differa mistake, but pleaded that it was a small ence appeared to be that the Paper laid one. Now, they had all heard of excuses on the table showed that the Civil Sermade by delinquents where the corpus vice Estimates for the present year exdelicti was a small one, and the excuse ceeded those of last year by £387,000; now offered was about on a par with that whereas, the Chancellor of the Excheof the female delinquent to whom he re- quer stated that the excess was only ferred. If the state of the law in Ireland £281,000. The difference between these was that, through the mistake of a Go- two statements was £106,000. The fact vernment officer, a man might be robbed was that the original Estimate had been of his land, and there was no mode of reduced by one item of £28,250. The correcting the error, it was the bounden Committee would also see that the Paper duty of the Government to see that a laid on the table only contained what change in the law was at once introduced. might be called the old Votes repeated

MR. TORRENS said, the Incumbered in the present year, and several suppleEstates Court had proved an inestimable mental and original Votes had been boon to Ireland, but its value would be omitted in the comparison, and those greatly impaired if any doubts were Votes amounted to £78,000. Therefore, thrown on the validity of the titles granted adding to that sum of £78,000 the other under it. At the same time, it would, amount of £28,250, it would be seen he thought, be possible to devise a re- that together they made the sum of medy for the injustice here pointed out. £106,000. He would now deal with the In Australia he had introduced a Bill for proposal to take the Vote on Account. In establishing a court similar to the Irish the first instance, it was intended to ask Incumbered Estates Court, and giving for a Vote on Account equal to four indefeasible titles; but there a small months' Supply; because, as there had percentage was levied upon the value of been considerable discussion as to the the land brought under the system, and best mode of conducting the business of out of the fund thus formed the persons that House in relation to the business of injured by such mischances as these re- the other House, it was thought desirceived compensation. This system of able to postpone until a late period of insurance, which fell very lightly on the Session that part of the business those resorting to the court, worked sa- which the other Hlouse would not retisfactorily. In addition to this there quire time to dispose of, in order that was a provision that the Government hon. Members might devote themselves at an early period to the consideration the wish expressed by the House last of the business which it was desirable to Session would be carried into effect. send up to the House of Lords as soon The details of the present Vote on Acas possible. He ventured, therefore, to count were, as might be seen, spread suggest that they should not proceed over almost all the items in the Civil with the Civil Service Estimates until Service Estimates. In proposing a Vote the Bills now under consideration should on Account it was not usual to enter be disposed of; but he understood that upon these items in detail, the Vote some hon. Gentlemen thought that the being taken in a single sum. Therefore Government would gain some advantage the Committee need not examine them by taking a large Vote on Account. It in detail. Indeed, it would be impossiwas, however, a matter of indifference ble for hon. Members to do so, as the to the Government whether they took Civil Service Estimates were not yet laid the Vote for a shorter or a longer time; on the table. He therefore presumed for, if taken for a short time, the Go- that the usual course would be adhered vernment, when that period elapsed, to, of taking the Vote on the understandwould only have to take another Vote ing that hon. Members reserved to themfor a further period, though that course selves the right of examining each of of proceeding might give trouble to the the items afterwards in Committee of permanent officers of the Department. Supply. He very much regretted that However, as some hon. Members did he had not been able to have the Civil not wish that the Government should Service Estimates printed and circulated take a Vote for a long time, he now by the present time; but, after keeping proposed to take a Vote for two months. back the present Vote to the last moIn taking this Vote, the Committee must ment, he now found himself compelled, understand it was not the intention of in consequence of the financial year havthe Government to embark under it ing expired, to propose it to the Comupon any new expenditure in respect to mittee. He might explain to such hon. which the Committee might desire to Members as were not conversant with express any opinion of their own, and the circumstances which rendered the the Vote on Account merely provided for present Vote necessary that in former the continuation of those services and times it was the practice to apply the works which had been sanctioned in the balances of old Votes to meet the expast year. Therefore, the Committee in penses at the beginning of the year sanctioning the Vote did not pledge until the new Estimates should be sancthemselves to any new undertaking, but tioned; but, under the system now in merely recognized the principle that the force, it was not lawful to apply those services were to be continued on the balances for the service of the new year footing on which they were left by the without the sanction of Parliament, but preceding Committee of Supply in last they must be paid into the Exchequer. year. His right hon. Friend the Chan- It was clear that if all the Civil Service cellor of the Exchequer stated to the Estimates could not be voted immeHouse yesterday, the leading causes diately after the commencement of the which led to the increase of these Esti- new financial year, the inevitable result mates, and a considerable portion of the must be that a portion of them must be increase was only apparent and unsub- voted as was now proposed, on account. It stantial. The most important item of was equally obvious that it was impossiapparent increase was that for the Diplo- ble to proceed with the whole of the matic Service, which was changed from Votes at the present period of the Sesa permanent charge on the Consolidated sion, and the Committee would, thereFund to a Vote in Supply. A Bill to fore, he hoped, have no difficulty in carry this arrangement into effect would assenting to the proposal of the Governbe laid on the table of the House as ment, that a certain sum should be soon as the necessary details were set- granted to meet the wants of the service. tled. By that measure the power of the MR. HUNT: Sir, I will not allude to Crown to obtain money for the Diplo- the first observations of the hon. Genmatic Service out of the Consolidated tleman who has just spoken as to the Fund would be taken away, so that discrepancy between the statement of hereafter those charges must be met by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Votes in a Committee of Supply, and the Papers which have been placed in

We,

our hands, because there will be an per issued on the 5th instant." It is not, opportunity afforded of discussing that I may add, usual to raise discussions on point when the House comes to deal Votes on Account, and I should on this with the full Estimates in Committee of occasion follow that which is the usual Supply. I must, however, say that the course had it not been for peculiar ciroriginal proposition made by the Go- cumstances connected with two items in vernment to take Votes on Account for a these Estimates. The two iteins to period of four months seems to me to which I allude are those on the second require some comment. The hon. Gen- page of the Paper which I hold in my tleman has stated that it was of no im- hands. No. 10, the Vote for the Charity portance to the Government whether Commission, and No. 12, that for the they took Supply for four months or Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commisfor two. I cannot think that that is sion. Certain proceedings occurred last altogether the case. At all events that year in connection with those Votes to was not the view of the matter which which I wish to call the attention of the was taken by those who sit on the Committee. On the 24th of April, 1868, Ministerial Benches, when in Opposi- , my hon. Friend the Member for Chiption last year. Last year the late penham (Mr. Goldney) moved a ResoGovernment proposed to adopt the usual sution as an Amendment to the Motion course, and to take a Vote on Account for going into Committee of Supply, in for a period of three months, but the following terms:we received an intimation from those

“ To leave out the word "That' to the end of who then sat upon these Benches that the Question, in order to add the words 'in tho they would object to the granting of opinion of this House the expenses of the CopySupply for more than six weeks. hold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission, Inclosure desiring to have no controversy on the and Drainage Acts, and Charity Commission ought

not to be borne by the public." point, consented to take Votes for only six weeks, but we found from the There was on that occasion a division, the Papers presented to the House, a few “Ayes” in favour of the words proposed days ago, that the Government, many of to be left out standing part of the question whose Members were opposed to our tak- being 104, and the "Noes” 105. The ing Supply for three months, proposed to consequence was that the next question take Votes for four months. Now, the put that the words of the Resolution practical consequence of voting money should be added to the word “that,” for so long a period must be, as the hon. and the numbers were “Ayes” 106; Gentleman knows, that the Estimates Noes," 105. It fell to my lot to take would be hurried through the House at part in that debate, and I stated, in the fag end of the Session, when many reply to my hon. Friend the Member Members would be reduced to such a for Chippenham, that the Government state of lassitude that they would be un- were altogether in favour of the prinwilling to stay in London, and when, ciple of his Motion, but that they practically, the Government would have thought its terms required some qualivery much their own way. It is quite fication. I added that, while right that the Government should have curring with him in the opinion that supplies to go on with, but then they the proceedings for the greater part in should not be allowed, in my opinion, to those cases ought to be carried out at have them for so long a time as to leave the expense of the parties interested, the discussion of the Estimates practically yet we looked upon

the measure which he in the hands of official Members. Cer- proposed as so sweeping that there tainly the Opposition of last year took a would be considerable difficulty in givvery stringent view of their rights in this ing it effect. I therefore suggested that matter, and I was, therefore, all the the word “entirely" should be inserted more unprepared for the course they in his Resolution before the word have taken now they are in power. We, borne,” thus binding the Government of the Opposition, made a suggestion to to the view that the expense ought not the Government; the consequence of to be entirely borne by the public. My which was that another Paper was placed hon. Friend, however, at the instigation in our hands, with a little slip pasted on of the present First Lord of the Admiit, with the statement, “It is requested ralty, the President of the Poor Law that this may be substituted for the Pa- Board, and others who now sit on the

con

66

а

Ministerial side of the House, declined | we spent was expended in consequence to accede to my proposal, and the House of the neglect of our predecessors in divided, with the result I have just men- Office, in not keeping up the public sertioned. We voted for the insertion of vice in a proper state of efficiency. I the word " entirely” because we did can quite understand that the ignorant not see our way to providing the expenses audience whom the right hon. Gentleof those Commissions without having man was addressing-[“Oh. oh!"]-I recourse to some extent to the aid of mean ignorant on this point — were not public funds. We thought that the pub- so well-informed with respect to it as the lic were interested in some of the proceed- | Members of the late House of Commons ings of those Commissions, and that to who took part in its discussions; and I that extent there ought to be some charge am not, therefore, surprised that the on the public funds, while we entirely con- statements of the right hon. Gentleman curred in the principle of the Resolution were received with a considerable amount that the general expense ought not to be of applause. For some of those statedefrayed from that source. My hon. (ments, made in the excitement of an Friend, however, who perhaps now may election contest, I should be inclined to perceive that he was ill-advised in the make some excuse ; but there were matter, refused to accept the slight others, which may, perhaps, be brought qualification of his Motion which I sug- before the House at some future day, for gested, went to a division, and tri- which there is little excuse to be found, umphed by a majority of 1. I was because they were made, I think, withrather curious to see who supported him out due inquiry into the facts of the on that occasion, and I found that no case. The right hon. Gentleman alluded, less than fourteen Members of the pre- ) among other things, to the debate on the sent Government, and four Members of Motion of my hon. Friend the Member the present Cabinet, went into the Lobby for Chippenham; and one of the chief in favour of his Motion. He was sup- counts in his indictment against the late ported, not only by the vote, but by the Government was that they had opposed speech of the present First Lord of the that Motion. So important were the utTreasury, while he was assisted in tel. terances of the right hon. Gentleman, ling the result of the division by the that they exist not only in the shape present First Lord of the Admiralty. of a newspaper report, but have been Now one would have thought that that bound up together and published in a circumstance would have decided the pamphlet. [“Hear, hear!”] I am not course of action of the present Govern- astonished to find that hon. Gentlemen ment in the matter. But the question opposite cheer; but the immortality of does not rest here, because the Prime these speeches may very well be reMinister made a very notable progress garded from two points of view, because during the Recess. He then made a great if they perpetuate sentiments worthy of number of speeches, which occupied a being perpetuated in the memories of great number of columns in the differ- the fellow-countrymen of the right hon. ent newspapers.

So profuse were his Gentleman, they also preserve many utterances, indeed, that I almost de- rash and reckless assertions. I only deal spaired of getting through so vast a mass with that portion of the speech which of words. I must, however, confess that refers to the Vote before us. I paid the right hon. Gentleman the ferred to the general statements concompliment of reading the greater por- tained in the speech, hon. Gentletion of those speeches, and felt much men opposite might be somewhat astonencouraged by those prolix effusions ished at the assertions which were then with which he relieved his mind. One made. The right hon. Gentleman alof the chief topics on which he dwelt luded to the course which was adopted was the extraordinary extravagance of by the then Government, and said, the late Government, and their great

We saw on the Notice Paper this year a Nodesire to squander the public money. I tice which would have saved the country a certain had some consolation in reading what sum of money. I think some £20,000 a year, the right hon. Gentleman said on this perhaps more. It was to the effect that the exsubject, because my conscience was very holds, Inclosures, and Tithes which had been

penses of certain Commissions relating to Copyeasy on the matter, for I felt that a charged on the Consolidated Fund should be great deal of the public money which borne not by the State but by the persons who

If I re

took benefit from the operation of these Commis- | election, declared his opinion that the sions. This Motion, which we thought a very expense of the Charity Commission should rational Motion, was made by Mr. Goldney. Mr. also be saved to the country. The ChanGoldney is a man of much intelligence who sits on the Government side of the House."

cellor of the Exchequer, however, in Well, there I am as one with the right

an answer to my hon. Friend (Mr. Goldhon, Gentleman, for I quite agree that ney), stated, the other night, that the

Inclosure Commissioners would raise my hon. Friend is a man of much intel- £17,000 by fees—though he did

not add ligence. Then the right hon. Gentleman what the late Secretary of the Treasury continues

had done to secure this result-but con“ Thus we had an opportunity, because Mr. fessed that the Government did not see Goldney, being the Mover of the Motion, and not their way to relieve the public from the acting in concert with us, it was not possible to cast upon it the discredit of being a party Motion. charge of the Charity Commission. He Well, what did we do? We supported Mr. Gold- declared that he himself should like to ney, and what happened? We carried our Motion impose an income tax on charities. Now, by 1. So keen were the Government to resist I say that after what occurred the Gothis reduction of expenditure, that after being thus beaten in a division some rumour went vernment were bound to attempt to carry abroad that one or two Members had come into out the Resolution of my hon. Friend. the liouse that they might, if they divided again, We were taunted, when in Office, with obtain a different issue. They divided again, and not having the power to give effect to again they were beaten by 1."

some of our wishes ; but what is the use I gather, then, that in the opinion of the of having a strong Government in Office, present Government this £20,000 a year carrying great measures by a majority ought to have been saved to the country of 118, if, having decided opinions on and thrown upon the

persons interested; such a subject as this, and having and the Members of the then Govern- pledged themselves as deeply as they ment were held up as so keen against can by Resolutions in this House and by the reduction that they took a second speeches out-of-doors, the Government division. I do not think that this ac- “ do not see their way to carry out that count of what occurred in the House which they severely censured us for not quite accords with the facts; because, so carrying out? When this sort of thing far from resisting the spirit of the pro- happens it ought to make Gentlemen posal, I stated that I entirely concurred careful of what they say in their elecin it, but that we thought its terms so tion speeches. I think they ought not strict as to require qualification. How to attribute to their political opponents ever, the Colleagues of the right hon. a desire to squander public money, and Gentleman were so determined upon to throw upon the public charges which effecting this economy that they refused ought to be borne by private persons, to admit of any qualification. Well, I whereas when they come into Office they cannot conceive-after the right hon. themselves do nothing: At the time Gentleman had supported the Motion, when the right hon. Gentleman supand after the grave charge brought by ported the Motion of my hon. Friend he him against the late Government--that, had had some experience as to the difficoming into power with such a majority, culties of imposing charges upon charihe might not have found means to carry ties, and had made a proposal which he out the views he expressed in Opposition. was unable to carry; yet, knowing the My hon. Friend the late Secretary to the difficulties of the case, he refuses to quaTreasury (Mr. Sclater-Booth) brought in lify the terms of the Motion, and then a Bill to enable the Inclosure Commis- goes down to his would-be constituents sion to levy fees, and the Commissioners and charges the then Government with will thus be able, according to their resisting the reduction of expenditure in estimate, to raise a sum of £17,000 to this instance. What has happened ? meet the expenses of £20,000. The late The right hon. Gentleman and his ColGovernment were entirely of opinion leagues propose these two Votes, not that the expense should not be borne by having, as regards the Charity Commisthe public, and they took measures ac- sion, taken one single step to relieve the cordingly. But now a word or two on public. the subject of the Charity Commission. Mr. GLADSTONE: Sir, I congratuThe right hon. Gentleman, by his vote late the right hon. Gentleman on having here and by his taunting speech at the commenced his speech with a criticism