recognize the demand of the Pope of days enunciated in the presence of the Rome as an adequate and sufficient rea- chief Prelates of the Church, and under son; or that he should have the credulity the solemnities of an inauguration by to suppose that the majority of his coun- the observance of Divine worship, detrymen were ready to recognize such a clarations the most uncompromising, demand. Whether that demand will be putting aside with contempt all those inmade I do not presume to say,

The termediate courses to which some Genhon. Member, I dare say, is much better tlemen here would allude, denouncing informed of the intentions of the Pope the Report of the Commissioners, dethan I am. He has evidently acquired nouncing the plan of concurrent endowa familiarity with the probable move- ment, and claiming of the Parliament ments of that great personage, for he that, under pain of being regarded as meets him at every turn. When we sacrilegious plunderers, we are to recog. point out to him the Presbyterians of nize and maintain that state of ecclesiasScotland ardently desiring this measure, tical arrangements which at present subhis answer is that he can see under the sists in Ireland. Well, Sir, having the gown of John Knox nothing but the issue thus plainly before us, we underspectre of the Pope of Rome. If we stand our duty, and I think I may say refer to the Nonconformists of England we shall perform it. But one other —that powerful body who certainly, as challenge I have to notice-namely, that far as I can understand, will not consent of the hon. and learned Gentleman the to take a second place as compared with Member for Salford (Mr. Charley), who any other portion of the community or told us that the Throne of this country of the Christian world in claiming the rested upon Protestant ascendancy. Sir, honours of Protestantism-still the hon. I the Throne of this country is connected Member cannot dislodge from his mind with the profession of Protestantism. this extraordinary phantom, or free him- Far be it from me to deny that, nor do I self from the delusion that the whole know that that fact has ever been made agency, and the entire convictions of the subject of complaint by our Roman the Nonconformists, are to be referred Catholic fellow-countrymen. I think to the secret and subtle influence of the they feel that the respect which is due Pope. Now, is it not pardonable in us to the majority of British subjects, and if we decline to enter into detailed ar- to their convictions, would stop their gumentation upon such wild chimeras mouths against complaining of such a as these.

And am I not justified in constitutional arrangement. But, Sir, offering one general reply to the hon. that is one thing to say. It is quite anGentleman in a few pithy words which other thing to hold that the Throne of occurred towards the close of his speech, this country rests upon Protestant aswhere he said —"No man can argue cendancy. The Protestant profession of with fears." The fears of the hon. Gen- the Sovereign or of the Heir Apparent tleman are so wakeful and so subtle that does not imply that which we underI think they would fairly elude any grasp stand, and that which Ireland has expethat one might endeavour to lay on rienced, under the name of Protestant them. Be it recollected, then, in what ascendancy. I dispute and deny the position we stand with regard to this doctrine of the hon. and learned Genmeasure—the point that we have now tleman in any form in which he can reached when we are about to go into place it. I deny that it is true at this Committee on the Bill—that we have in moment–I deny that it has been true this House the variety and diversity of at any period of our history. It cer. declarations and intentions to which I tainly was not true at the time when the have referred; and that we have in Ire- negotiations of Charles I. substantially land at least this advantage, although proceeded to the point of a perfect wilit is one that I cannot accept in a polemi- lingness to recognize that which was then cal sense without recording my per- the status quo—the actual condition of sonal regret that, by an authoritative things in Ireland at the time when, in manifestation of what may be called the year 1644, the Roman Catholics were substantially a representative assembly in possession of the larger portion both -at least an assembly representative of of the churches and of the Church prothe majority in the Irish Established perty of the country. But perhaps you Church, we have had within the last two may say, and say with truth, that at

933

that

regarded

Protestantism

Rome, what

are

that time the battle of the Churches, so tleman, or anyone else, that we, who to speak had not been fought out, and stand here, stand here as the promoters

Charles I. himself was not to be of an unheard-of innovation, and that as an orthodox champion of we are not prepared to travel back into

or foe of the Church of the scenes of former days, and show that Well, supposing it to be so, long generations ago there was the

We to say to William III.? authority of the greatest and the wisest At any rate there is no doubt of his men for measures which in principle are Protestantism. The faith of all Eng- associated with those which we now prolishmen, and particularly of all Irish- pose. Sir, it is unnecessary for me to men, in the convictions of William III. detain the House. I thought that in the has not been shaken, and he will be re- debate which has occurred to-night, as garded as no hostile witness in a matter a mark of due respect from the Governthat concerns the relations of the two ment, some at least of the main points Churches or the two religions of Ireland. which have been referred to should be Yet we find it

upon

record that William noticed; and I own I was not sorry to III. did not believe it to be necessary to have an opportunity of pointing to that maintain even in that day this system of division of counsels declared to-night Protestant ascendancy towards the Ro- within the hearing of us all, which man Catholics. Unfortunately the con- ought to operate as a lesson of prudence flict and struggle in Ireland gave a new to hon. Gentlemen who sit opposite, course, it is true, to events, and that and which must undoubtedly operate as sagacious King conceived there, as he a lesson of encouragement to those who had previously conceived in Scotland, sit on this side of the House. that he was compelled to choose his MR. DISRAELI: I do not intend to part, and when he thought that the time detain the House at any length, but I had come he chose it. But what had he wish to explain the course which I shall done in the meantime? It is upon re- take upon a division, if a division is cord, in the letters of Dean Swift, written asked for. I think I have given ample by Sir Charles Wogan, a person imme- evidence to the House of my sincerity diately connected with those who gave in consenting to go into Committee, as the direct evidence in the case, that I have already prepared some work for William III. made an offer to the Ro- consideration which will probably take man Catholics shortly after his arrival up some of our time and attention, in this country which is described in the and I came down to the House topassage that I am about to read- night ready to enter into the discus

“ The Prince was touched with the fate of a sions which were likely to arise in congallant nation that had made itself a victim of nection with these matters. At the same French promises, and ran headlong to its ruin for time, I must say that I do not think the the only purpose in fact of advancing the French right hon. Gentleman or his Friends can conquests in the Netherlands, under the favour of that hopeless diversion in Ireland which gave

be astonished that discussion upon the work enough to 40,000 of the best troops of the principle of the Bill should have been grand alliance of Augsburg. He longed to find desired by Gentlemen on this side. When himself at the head of so strong a reinforcement. the right hon. Gentleman introduced his In this anxiety he offered the Irish Catholics the free exercise of their religion, half the churches of measure to us, he described it, and prothe kingdom, half the employments civil and mili- perly described it, as one of the greatest tary too, if they pleased, and even the moiety of issues that had ever been submitted to their ancient properties.”

Parliament; and the right hon. GentleThat offer was made at a time when the man, with his experience of the House Roman Catholics of Ireland were san- of Commons, must feel that probably guine in the anticipation that they would, no measure of so vast a character had by their courage and devotion, succeed in been discussed in so short a period. re-establishing a monarch of their own I believe the whole discussion lasted religion. It was—perhaps we ought to only four days, and that, certainly, for say unhappily, but at any rate it was the most important issue that had ever upon those grounds declined; and the been submitted to Parliament was not consequence has been that the history of extravagant. In point of fact, it was Ireland from that day to this has run in recognized by myself, and by those with an unhappy channel. Do not let it be whom I act, that it was just to the Gosupposed by the hon, and learned Gen- vernment to give them an opportunity

[Committee.

before Easter of taking the decision of peculiar circumstances of the case, bethe House upon the second reading, fore Easter, and that an opportunity and therefore every attempt was made of expressing their views should have compatible with a fairly adequate dis- been given to those hon. Gentlemen who cussion to arrive at that result. But wished to address the House on the I felt at the time, and all must have subject. At the same time I must er. felt, that a great many hon. Gentlemen, press a hope — and it is most desirable and hon. Gentlemen who had a right to for the sake of Public Business, and, express their opinions were debarred of indeed, for the sake of those principles the opportunity which they were entitled and arrangements which we on this side to count upon. And considering that the are anxious to uphold that no further debate of to-night has been kept up only obstacle should be offered to the right by one side, and that to keep up a de- hon. Gentleman in going into Commitbate in that manner is one of the most tee, because one of the advantages which difficult things in the world, I must say I anticipate from going into Committee -it would be invidious to point to any is not only that we may possibly achieve speeches in particular—that, generally some important results, which is obvious, speaking, they have been some of the but I think we shall find a solution of best I ever heard. The right hon. Gen- those difficulties which haunt and amuse tleman (Mr. Gladstone) himself has re- the imagination of the right hon. Genferred to the speech of my noble Friend tleman as to the difference of opinions the Member for Liverpool (Viscount and counsels prevailing on this side of Sandon), which I think reflected great the House. I do look forward to the credit on the House, and there were Committee as giving an opportunity of other speeches to which I listened with showing that our opinions on all imporinterest and attention. I make these tant points are compact and well-conobservations because some who are not sidered, and I trust may even recommend so experienced in the ways of the House themselves to the House so generally may conclude, from the tone—I thought that we may have in their support the not very Parliamentary tone - of some assistance from hon. Gentlemen those who have condemned the course opposite. that has been taken by my hon. Friends that something had been done which is

Question put. unwarrantable and unusual. It is not

The House divided :-Ayes 355; Noes unusual, and, in the present state of the 229: Majority 126. case, it was not unwarrantable; on the contrary, I think it was perfectly jus

AYES. tified. I do not know what is the course that the hon. Member for North Agar-Ellis

, hn. L.G.F. Bolckow, 11. W.F. Acland, T. D.

Blennerbassett, Sir R. Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) intends Akroyd, E.

Bonham-Carter, J. to take—whether he intends to call for Allen, w. S.

Bowring, E. A. a division on his Motion or not. I Amcotts, Col. W. C. Brady, J. myself should regret it if he does, be- Amory, J. H. Brand, right hon, H. cause I think it is impolitic to per- Anstruther, Sir R.

Anderson, G.

Brand, H. R.

Brassey, H. A. petually have divisions upon the prin- Antrobus, E.

Brewer, Dr. ciples of great measures and so realizing Armitstead, G. Bright, J. (Manchester) results not so favourable as those pre- Ayrton, A. S.

Bright, rt. hon. J. viously. But, of course, the hon. Gentle- Aytoun, R. S.

Brinckman, Capt. man will take the line which he thinks Baines, E.

Backhouse, E.

Brocklehurst, W. C.

Brown, A. H. proper. I can only express for myself Baker, R. B. W. Bruce, Lord C. a hope that, after that division, there Barclay, A. C. Bruce, Lord E. will be no further obstacle to the right Barry, A. H. S. Bruce, rt. hon. H. A. hon. Gentleman's Motion for going into Baxter, w. E.

Bass, M. A.

Buller, Sir E, M. Committee. It will receive no opposi- Bazley, T.

Burke, Viscount

Bury, Viscount tion from me, or from those with whom Beaumont, Capt. F. Butler-Johnstone, H. A. I act. I do not, however, consider this Beaumont, s. A. Buxton, C. evening as wasted.

I think it was

Beaumont, W. B. Cadogan, hon. F. W. desirable that on the principle of the

Bentall, E. H.

Campbell, H. measure there should have been more Bingham, Lord

Biddulph, M.

Candlish, J.

Cardwell, rt. hon. E. discussion than took place under the Blake, J. A.

Carington, hon. Cap. IF

Harcourt, W. G. G. V. V. Milton, Viscount

Headlam, rt. hon. T. E. Moore, G. H.

Clifton, Sir R. J.

Clive, Col. hon. G. W.
Clowes, S. W.

Cole, Col. hon. H. A.
Corbett, Colonel
Corrance, F. S.

Corry, rt. hon. H. T. L.
Courtenay, Viscount
Crichton, Viscount
Croft, Sir H. G. D.
Cross, R. A.
Cubitt, G.

Cunliffe, J. C. P.
Curzon, Viscount
Dalrymple, C.
Dalway, M. R.
Damer, Capt. Dawson-
Davenport, W. B.
Dawson, R. P.
De Grey, hon. T..
Denison, C. B.
Dick, F.

Dickson, Major A. G.
Dimsdale, R.

Disraeli, rt. hon. B.
Drax, J. S. W. S. E.
Duncombe, hon. Col.
Du Pre, C. G.
Dyke, W. H.
Dyott, Colonel R.
Eastwick, E. B.
Eaton, H. W.

Egerton, hon. A. F.
Egerton, E. C.
Egerton, Sir P. G.
Egerton, hon. W.

Feilden, H. M.

Hope, A. J. B. B.
Hornby, E. K.
Howes, E.

Hunt, right hn. G. W.
Ingram, H. F. M.
Jackson, R. W.
Jenkinson, Sir G. S.

Johnston, W.

Kavanagh, A. M.

Ridley, M. W.
Round, J.

Royston, Viscount
Sandon, Viscount
Sclater-Booth, G.
Scott, Lord H. J. M.D.
Scourfield, J. H.
Selwin Ibbetson, Sir

H. J.

Shirley, S. E.
Sidebottom, J.

Simonds, W. B.

Kekewich, S. T.

Keown, W.

Smith, A.

Knightley, Sir R.

Smith, F. C.

Lacon, Sir E. H. K.

Smith, R.

Laird, J.

Smith, S. G.

Lefroy, A.

Stanley, hon. F.

Legh, W. J.

Langton, W. H. P. G. Smith, W. H.

Lennox, Lord G. G.

Lennox, Lord H. G.

Leslie, C. P.

Starkie, J. P. C.
Stopford, S. G.
Stronge, Sir J. M.
Sturt, H. G.

Sturt, Lieut.-Col. N.
Sykes, C.

Talbot, J. G.

Manners, rt. hon. Ld. J. Thynne, Lord H. F.

Taylor, rt. hon. Col.

Fellowes, E.

Maxwell, W. H.

Tipping, W.

Fielden, J.

Floyer, J.
Forde, Colonel

Forester, rt. hon. Gen.
Fowler, R. N.
Garlies, Lord
Gilpin, Colonel
Goldney, G.
Gore, J. R. O.
Gore, W. R. O.
Graves, S. R.
Gray, Lieut.-Col.

Greaves, E.

Greene, E.

Gregory, G. B.
Guest, A. E.

Gurney, rt. hon. R.
Hambro, C. T.
Hamilton, Lord C.
Hamilton, Lord G.

Hamilton, I. T.

Mills, C. H.
Mitford, W. T.

Montagu, rt. hn.Lord R.
Montgomery, Sir G. G.
Morgan, C. O.
Morgan, hon. Major
Mowbray, rt. hn. J. R.
Neville-Grenville, R.
Newport, Viscount
Noel, Hon. G. J.
North, Colonel

Vance, J.
Verner, E. W.
Verner, W.

Vickers, S.

Walpole, rt. hon. S. H.
Walsh, hon. A.
Waterhouse, S.

Welby, W. E.

Wethered, T. 0.

Northcote, right hon. Whitmore, H.

Wheelhouse, W. S. J.

Williams, F. M.

Wilmot, H.

Wise, H. C.

Pakington, rt. hn. Sir J. Wright, Colonel'

Sir S. H.

O'Neill, hon. E.

Paget, R. H.

Palk, Sir L.

Wyndham, hon. P.

Parker, Major W.

Wynn, C. W. W.

Patten, rt. hn. Col. W.
Peek, H. W.

Hamilton, Marquess of Pell, A.

Hardy, rt. hon. G.
Hardy, J.
Hardy, J. S.
Hay, Sir J. C. D.
Henley, rt, hon. J. W.
Henniker-Major, hon.
J. M.
Henry, J. S.
Herbert, rt. hn. Gen. P.
Hermon, E.

Hervey, Lord A. II. C.
Hesketh, Sir T. G.
Heygate, Sir F. W.
Hick, J.

Hildyard, T. B. T.
Hill, A. S.
Hoare, P. M.
Hodgson, W. N.

Pemberton, E. L.
Percy, Earl

Phipps, C. P.

Wynn, Sir W. W.

TELLERS.

Newdegate, C. N.
Knox, hon. Colonel S.

Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee.

MR. GLADSTONE: I rise, Sir, to move that the Committee report Progress, and I take this opportunity of appealing to the hon. Baronet the Member for North Wiltshire to ask him, in deference, I think, to the general wishes