R.P. try, if carried on under strict superin- | children are properly taken care of, are tendence, would be most beneficial to exceedingly great. A very serious rethe colonies. sponsibility would be incurred if any single case of cruelty to the children Hlouse adjourned at half-past Seven should occur. With regard to the second o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock. part of the Question, I may say that there are very considerable legal difficul. ties in the way. There is this difficulty —that the expense of the removal from one union to another cannot now be HOUSE OF COMMONS, legally incurred by the guardians; and there is this further difficulty—that the Friday, 16th April, 1869. inspection will have to be made by the relieving officer of one board while the MINUTES.] – New Writ Issued-For Brec- children will be chargeable to another knock Borough, v. Howel Gwyn, esq., void union. Election. -WATERLOO AND WHITEHALL RAILWAY. QUESTION. MR. G. GREGORY said, he wished to ask the President of the Board of MR. RATHBONE said, he wished to Trade, Whether his attention has been ask the President of the Poor Law called to the piling in the river Thames Board, Whether his attention has been Westminster Bridges; and, whether he between the Charing Cross Railway and directed to the experiment which the Chorlton Board of Guardians is trying who is responsible for the continuance can state when it will be removed, or of placing orphan pauper children with of it? families of the working classes; and, whether he would be prepared to sanc- Government Department has at present MR. BRIGHT: I believe, Sir, that no tion the pauper children of towns being removed from the less healthy air of any power to deal with the obstruction. their own parishes and placed, as is done The piles to which the hon. Gentleman has referred are connected with the in Scotland, in healthy country districts works of the Waterloo and Whitehall with industrious peasant families ? Mr. GOSCHEN : Sir, my attention Railway, and the time permitted to that has been called to the experiment which company has been extended to July, is being tried by the Chorlton Board of interfere with the piles ; but after that 1870. Until that time no one can legally Guardians of placing orphan pauper date it will be in the power of the Board children with families of the working of Trade and the Conservators of the classes. The experiment is being tried not only there, but at other unions, and Thames to take steps for their removal. I among them at Evesham, and there has presume, therefore, that the matter been a correspondence in regard to the must be left as it is at present. system between the Evesham Board of METRIC SYSTEM OF WEIGHTS AND Guardians and the Poor Law Board. It is the intention of the hon. and gallant MEASURES.-QUESTION. Member for Evesham (Colonel Bourne) MR. J. B. SMITH said, he wished to to move for that correspondence, and it ask the President of the Board of Trade, will show more clearly than I could in Whether his attention has been called the limits of an answer to a Question to the following facts — namely, that in the views of the Poor Law Board in re- July, 1864, an Act was passed intituled gard to that experiment. It is a matter “ An Act to Render Permissive the Use of the most extreme importance. On of the Metric System of Weights and the one hand, the advantages of the sys- Measures;” that, in consequence of a tem, if it could be adopted, are very person being summoned before the Maapparent; but, on the other hand, the gistrates by an Inspector of Weights risks attending it, unless the super- and Measures for having Metric Weights vision is most vigorous, and every pos- in his possession, the following Circular, sible care is taken to see that the from the Standards Department of the а Board of Trade, dated 19th April, 1867, | Electors, and that outrages were committed prewas addressed to Inspectors of Weights vious to and during said Election, which were cal culated to deter, and did in fact deter, Electors and Measures, namely from exercising their franchise at said Election;" “I am instructed by the Board of Trade to acquaint you, for the information of the Local Magis and that trates and Inspectors of Weights and Measures, “it was proved before him that such intimidathat, upon a case submitted to the Law Officers of tion was continued in said Borough of Sligo from the Crown upon the legal construction of The the time of said Election down to and during the Metric Weights and Measures Act, 1864,' they trial of said Election Petition ;" have given an opinion that a person using Metrical Weights and Measures is liable to have them and, whether he does not consider that seized, and to conviction and forfeiture of the this Special Report affords a fitting case weights under the Act 5 & 6 Will. IV. c. 63;" for the House of Commons to exercise Whether he considers this a satisfactory the powers reserved to it by s. 14, 31 state of the Law; and, whether he in- & 32 Vict. c. 125, and to order an inquiry tends to bring in a Bill during the pre- into the organized and long-continued sent Session of Parliament to remedy it; intimidation thus reported by Mr. Justice or, whether, with a view to sett this Keogh? question, he proposes to bring in a Bill MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, I am very much obliged to my noble Friend for be no doubt at all as to the The only only one answer to be given to his first ject which he has in view. Question—that the state of the law is of the law. My right hon. and learned doubt that exists is as to the language not satisfactory—for nothing can be more Friend the Attorney General for Ireland absurd than that a man having in his has moved for a Commission of Inquiry possession a certain description of weights into the corrupt practices at Sligo, and and measures should be liable to have it is quite evident that it is desirable the them seized, although the law intended that he should use them. I am only sur law should look upon intimidation as a prised that my hon. Friend did not take corrupt practice. As to the sufficiency prised that my hon. Friend did not take of the grounds laid down by Mr. Justice care when the Bill was passing that it was more carefully worded. With regard to Keogh, there is no doubt that his Report the prospect of bringing in a Bill this Ses- But the House of Commons has no power affords ample reason for the inquiry. sion, I may tell him that the Standards to proceed except under the terms of the Commission have reported in favour of the change which he has so strongly and statute, and those terms do not allow us for so long a time advocated in this to issue an inquiry into anything but We have no into corrupt practices. House; and I suppose sometime, when the Government or the Board of Trade power to explain what corrupt practices has a great deal more leisure than at are ; that will be a subject for the Com missioners to consider. But I am inpresent, possibly a measure on the sub- formed by my right hon. and learned ject may be introduced. But I do not Friend that in his opinion intimidation think there is any prospect that it will be ought undoubtedly to be a corrupt pracintroduced during the present Session. tice. There are many other practices, be conIRELAND-SLIGO ELECTION. sidered corrupt practices; and although popularly the name “ corrupt practices" ” LORD CLAUD HAMILTON said, he attaches only to bribery and treating, , would beg to ask the First Lord of the yet it is plain that according to common Treasury, whether his attention has sense these others should be included. been called to the Special Report made But the only position open to us to take by Mr. Justice Keogh on the recent up is to say that if it should prove, ac cording to the opinion of competent auSligo Election, stating that thorities, that upon the law as it stands " A system of intimidation and violence was corrupt practices do not include intimiorganized and carried out for months previous to and during the said last Election for the said Bo- dation, then undoubtedly they ought to rough of Šligo, subversive of freedom of Election, do so. and endangering the lives and properties of the QUESTION. difficulty of the subject itself, but of THE JUDICIAL COMMISSION. the almost irreconcilable differences of QUESTION. opinion existing between those who conMr. SHERRIFF said, he wished to curred in desiring, to bring about a * ask the Under Secretary of State for the change. He would do his best, horHome Department, If he can inform the ever, to reconcile conflicting views, and House when the Report of the Judicial still hoped that a measure acceptable to Commission will be issued; whether it the House might be introduced is intended to be sent out in two parts; DURHAM COUNTY COURTS.- QUESTION. and, if so, whether the recommendations of the Commission as to alteration of MR. HENDERSON said, he wished Assize Districts will be contained in the to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, If first or second portion of the Report ? he is aware that two thousand pounds MR. KNATCHBULL - HUGESSEN was paid two years ago for a site on said, in reply to the Question of the hon. which to erect suitable offices for the Member, that he had that evening pre- County Courts in the city of Durham, sented the First Report of the Judicial and that the present premises do not Commission, from which statement his contain the requisite accommodation for hon. Friend would doubtless infer that transacting the business of the district ; there was another part to follow. The and, if he will state when the erection of Commissioners declare their opinion that the new offices is likely to take place ? the judicial business of the country MR. AYRTON said, in reply, that he ought no longer to be distributed accord was aware of the sum having been granting to the accidental division of counties, ed, for it appeared in the present Estibut that certain counties should be con- mates. The building would be comsolidated in convenient districts, and menced as soon as the money was voted, they also recommended the remodelling but it would, no doubt, occupy some of circuits. The details of their scheme time in being built. were not stated in the present Report, but merely the general grounds upon INCLOSURE OF COMMONS.—QUESTION. which they had arrived at their decision. Mr. WALSH said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home NATIONAL GALLERY.-QUESTION. Department, Whether he will lay upon MR. BREWER said, he wished to ask the Commissioners of Woods and Forests the Table of the House the terms which the First Commissioner of Works, When exact from the commoners in all inclothe National Gallery will be re-opened sures where the Crown is Lord of the to the public? Manor ? MR. LAYARD, in reply, said, the MR. BRUCE, in reply, said, he was Gallery would be open to the public on unable to lay upon the table of the Monday week. House the exact terms which the Com missioners of Woods and Forests exacted SALMON FISHERY LAWS.- QUESTION. from the commoners. They varied so Sir HERBERT CROFT said, he commons that it was absolutely impossi greatly with the circumstances of the wished to ask the Under Secretary of ble to lay down any specific terms which State forthe Home Department, Whether they were in the habit of exacting when he intends to introduce a Bill during the measures were made. present Session to amend the Salmon Fishery Laws of England ? MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN, IRELAND-CASHEL ELECTION, in reply, said, he had stated to a deputa QUESTION. tion at the Home Office, early in the pre- LORD EDWIN HILL-TREVOR said, sent Session, that a Bill would be intro- he rose to ask Mr. Attorney General for duced to amend the Salmon Fishery Ireland, Whether he intends to take any Laws, and he was anxious still to fulfil proceedings upon the Report of Judge that pledge. Having, however, entered Fitzgerald, who, on the 22nd of February upon the subject with an innocent confi- last, reported the Election for the City dence, he found that this approximated of Cashel void, and that he had reason to rashness, not only on account of the to believe, from the evidence given before him, that the corrupt practice of that precedent. Were it not for the bribery did extensively prevail at the said rule upon which he was now taking his Election for the City of Cashel ? stand, a Prime Minister, supported by THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR an overwhelming majority, might beIRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN) said, in re- come dictator of the House, and private ply, that the Report of the learned Members would be unable to enter upon Judge with regard to the borough of any business whatever except with his Cashel had not escaped his notice, and permission. The right hon. Gentleman it was his intention to give notice respect- might, however, stop him at any moment ing the late election as soon as the Minutes by granting that which he asked. He of Evidence were laid on the table. He felt unable therefore to give way, but he had reason to believe those Minutes would not detain the House at any would be presented in a very short time. length. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury had promised SUPPLY. that the question of local taxation should Order for Committee read. be dealt with ; but it was difficult to see Motion made, and Question proposed, how this promise could be carried out "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the in a manner satisfactory to those most Chair." interested, if the promise made by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade to drag his ColLOCAL TAXATION.-QUESTION. leagues before the bar of public opinion SIR GEORGE JENKINSON said, perpetually until he had obtained a rehe would beg to ask the First Lord of mission of £20,000,000 of Customs duthe Treasury, Whether, as the Govern- ties were carried out. If they were to ment have granted to Scotland the in- look for a remission of £20,000,000 in quiry which they have denied to the the Customs duties to please him—if they ratepayers of England and Wales, on were also to obtain a remission of local the subject of local taxation, he will taxation—which now reached the sum of undertake to legislate at once on that £11,000,000—and if, in justice to the subject, so that a remedy for the un- farmers of England, the duty on malt, equal and unjust mode of levying poor now about £7,000,000 more, were to be rates under the existing system may remitted, those sums altogether would take effect during the present Session of reach to a total of £35,000,000—so that Parliament; or, if not, whether he will he did not see much chance of that relief now grant a Select Committee to inquire to the local taxpayer to which they were into the subject of the unequal incidence entitled. The great towns of England of the poor rates in England and Wales, were awakening to the importance of the with a view to facilitate a remedy being subject, and one important borough, reprovided by legislation at the earliest presented by an hon. Gentleman opposite, available opportunity? He must, in the was about to take action upon it. The first place, express his regret at not question was, in his opinion, of quite as being able to comply with the request of pressing importance as that of the Irish the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord Church. There was a real grievance in of the Treasury, that he would postpone the question of local taxation, while it that Motion, and he would assure him appeared to him that there was no hardthat his refusal to comply with the re- ship in the question of the Irish Church. quest was made in no spirit of discour- MR. GLADSTONE said, that the hon. tesy towards the right hon. Gentleman, Baronet who had just spoken had laid or in any want of respect to the House ; down the somewhat formidable doctrine but he had consulted a great many that it was desirable to interpose the Friends in the House, and they had settlement of the question of local taxassured him that if he were in that case ation before that of the Irish Church. to establish the precedent of giving way The hon. Baronet had, however, carried it would be injurious to the interests of that doctrine into practice in so mild a the private Members of the House, not manner that he could not complain of only on that occasion, but upon others his having declined to accede to his resimilar to it. Hon. Gentlemen even on quest that the discussion upon this subthe other side of the House might be glad ject should be postponed till a future in future that he had not established occasion. With regard to the immediate was purpose of the hon. Baronet, he thought However, the principal answer he should it proceeded upon a misapprehension of give to the hon. Baronet would be to the real circumstances of the case. He remind him that when the question of appeared to think that an inquiry had local taxation was under discussion at an been granted with regard to the opera- early period of the Session, the evident tion of the Poor Laws in Scotland, which desire of many hon. Members was that had not been granted with regard to an inquiry into the subject should be England. That was far from being the made, not through the medium of a fact. The Committee which had been Committee of the House, but through appointed for Scotland was a Committee that of a Royal Commission, and that appointed to inquire into the operation what was undertaken by the right hon. of the Poor Laws for the purpose of as- Gentleman the President of the Poor certaining whether any, and if so, what Law Board and by himself, on the part amendments might be made therein. A of the Government, was that the whole Committee, with almost identical powers, facts relating to the question should be was granted with regard to England collected and brought together, and that, some few years ago upon the recom- as soon as the pressure of other subjects mendation of my right hon. Friend, would permit, the Government would be the Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. prepared to propose such alteration in Villiers), who was then the President of the present law relating to local taxation the Poor Law Board, and that Com- as might appear to them, upon a careful mittee, having inquired into the matter, consideration of those facts to be necesmade a Report, which laid upon Those hon. Members who suptable of that House, and which had be- ported the Motion to which he referred come the basis of subsequent legislation. had been pleased to express their satisTherefore, the inquiry which had been faction with that declaration, and he recently granted with respect to the believed that it was then generally underPoor Law of Scotland had already been stood that the engagement entered into granted and had taken effect as regarded by his right hon. Friend was accepted in England. The hon. Baronet appeared place of the demand for a Royal Commisto desire, not merely an inquiry into the sion. Upon one point there could be no operation of the Poor Law in England, misunderstanding-namely, that no debut also an inquiry into the manner in mand had been made for an inquiry by a which the rates were raised, which was Committee of that House. Under these a totally different matter; as different circumstances, he must say the Governas an inquiry into our army system would ment were of opinion that a Committee of be from an inquiry into the mode of that House to inquire into the mode levying taxes out of which the army was of collecting the rates in England and supported. The Committee which was Wales should not be granted, and that, sitting to inquire into the operation of undoubtedly, it was not in their power, the Poor Law in Scotland would act in whatever might be their desire, to legisthe main in the same sense, and within late at once on the mode in which local the same limitations, as the Committee taxation was raised in this country. which was appointed on the recommen- MR. NEWDEGATE observed that by dation of the right hon. Member for his determination to procure an answer Wolverhampton. He had certainly been from Her Majesty's Government upon given to understand that the Scotch this subject the hon. Baronet (Sir George Committee had regarded it as being Jenkinson) vindicated the rights of inwithin their province to investigate some dependent Members. After the expematters connected with the collection of rience of yesterday, when the great the poor rates in Scotland; but, then, it party opposite were held in silence upon must be recollected that the system of a measure, that the Prime Minister collection of the poor rates in that had declared to be of the highest imcountry was different from the English portance, he thought it was time that system, because in Scotland nearly every hon. Members, who were opposed to the man was taxed for the relief of the poor measure for the disestablishment and on his whole means and substance, and disendowment of the Irish Church should that circumstance had given an indefi- remind the Prime Minister that although niteness to the law of poor rates which he had a majority in that House those did not exist in the law of this country. who sat opposite to him represented the |