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The CHAIRMAN. Your civil engineer would be an expert? Mr. VELDE. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Based on such expert advice as you can get from one of your members ? Mr. VELDE. Yes, sir; and without paying for it.

Mr. Dean. Perhaps the gentleman can tell us what the tax rate of Chicago is now? Mr. VELDE. I do not know. I have seen it, but I do not know now. Mr. DEAN. Can Mr. Randolph tell us! The CHAIRMAN. Do any of the Chicago representatives have the accurate figures on the tax rate there?

Mr. Adcock. I think it is about 2 per cent on the valuation. The CHAIRMAN. And what is your valuation? Mr. VELDE. That is for sanitary purposes only. Mr. Adcock. No; there are a number of different taxing bodies, but I think it runs about 2 per cent on the actual value of the property. Mr. HORNE. On the actual value? The CHAIRMAN. The actual or assessed value?

Mr. HORNE. The actual value; and the census figures just given out in Chicago show that its tax rate is lower than any one of 16 cities in the United States at the present time.

Mr. ADCOCK. That might be true as to the city of Chicago, corporate, but in order to make a comparison you have to take into consideration all of the different taxing bodies there; in other words, like the sanitary district, the city of Chicago, park boards, and so on, that really make up the municipal government of Chicago.

Mr. DEAN. That includes the entire tax?
Mr. ADCOCK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you say, that this comparison took into account of the taxing bodies in Chicago, or only some of them?

Mr. HORNE. I think that they put them all in, but I shall bring the figures of the census when I come to-morrow morning.

Mr. PEAVEY. I understand, Mr. Velde, that you are an officer in some protective association? Mr. VELDE. Yes, sir. Mr. PEAVEY. Isn't it true that their interest is the control of the regulation of the Illinois River rather than some more water?

Mr. VELDE. We do not want more water. We have this water now, but there is no authority from the Federal Government. Our State laws require 10,000 feet.

Mr. PEAVEY. I would take it, then, that most of the complaint among the members of your association is due to overflow and sewage conditions that come down to them from Chicago, rather than the question of diversion, or the amount of diversion at Chicago?

Mr. VELDE. Yes; but we want enough water for a waterway, because the valley is very much interested in this from a commercial standpoint.

Mr. PEAVEY. How much consideration has the Sanitary District of Chicago ever given in representations made by them to your association or anyone else to it, because of the sanitary conditions that they are causing to come down upon you?

Mr. VELDE. I would say nothing whatever.

Mr. HULL. In your judgment it would be very detrimental to the health of Peoria and Pekin if we were not to have the present flow of water on account of the sewage; isn't that true?

Mr. VELDE. I think that is true. In other words, if we get the sewage

Mr. HULL (interposing). You have to have water to take it away? Mr. VELDE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DEAL. Is there any limitation on the amount of taxation that can be levied by the city of Chicago for health purposes ?

Mr. VELDE. There is in the statute, but not in the constitution, and the statute can be amended at any session of the legislature, but the bonding power is limited by the constitution. They could not issue bonds beyond a certain limit, without a constitutional change.

(Whereupon, at 1.05 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 o'clock p. m.)

AFTER RECESS.

o'clock p. m.,

The committee met pursuant to the taking of the recess at 2.30

Hon. S. Wallace Dempsey (chairman) presiding: The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. We will hear Mr. Barnes.

STATEMENT OF M. G. BARNES, CHIEF ENGINEER OF THE

DIVISION OF WATERWAYS OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you give your full name?
Mr. BARNES. M. G. Barnes.
Mr. HULL. What is your position?

Mr. Barnes. I am chief engineer of the division of waterways of the State of Illinois.

Mr. HULL. And he represents the governor of the State.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. Mr. Barnes, it is suggested that you tell us what you know about this matter as an engineer.

Mr. BARNES. Mr. Chairman, I want to ask that I be allowed to remain seated through my talk, and I am not well enough to talk very loudly, and if I am not heard I wish you would say so.

The Governor asked me just a day or two ago to come down and represent him at this hearing requesting the enactment of this bill, or a similar bill, into law that will give the state of Illinois a waterway of adequate size and depth to take care of the commerce that we feel is awaiting the development of a project of this kind.

In 1908 the people of the State of Illinois voted a $20,000,000 bond issue to construct a navigable waterway, called in the act a deep waterway, connecting the Sanitary District of Chicago with the upper end of the development of the Illinois River as under control by the Federal Government.

Since that time various plans have been presented and negotiations entered into with the Federal authorities looking to the approval of our plans. First, I think a ship canal was projected and was not approved ; later a 14-foot waterway was developed; again, a third time, they came with a project for a much smaller canal with locks 250 feet long and 45 feet wide. These plans were not approved.

Finally, the State proposed a plan with locks standard with the locks on the Ohio River, 110 feet wide and 600 usable length, and with a depth of 14 feet on the mitered sills, 14 feet in all of the permanent structure, and with a depth in the canal of 10 feet in rock and 8 feet in earth, minimum depth.

These plans were approved and the State is now in the progress of constructing such a waterway. Mr. Hull. That is under your $20,000,000 bond appropriation ?

Mr. Barxes. Yes, sir; after we had gotten further into a study of physical conditions we found that there were but few short reaches where we had to do excavation in earth and that we could almost as cheaply make a 9-foot waterway as an 8-foot waterway, and the plans are now drawn on that depth of water.

We have completed the walls of one of the locks. We have contracted for the masonry work in the second lock. These two locks are land locked and are not dependent on any special flow in the river. There are three locks remaining. Before the contracts for those three locks are let and work is undertaken we should know definitely the amount of water that is flowing in the river, so as to know where to locate our structures. For that reason the State is very desirous of having the question of flow established at an early date.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not happen to have with you, Mr. Barnes, a map showing the part of the channel that the State of Illinois proposes to construct?

Mr. BARNES. Yes, sir; I have that. The CHAIRMAN. Let us have it. Mr. Hull. That is the big one up there. Here is what the State is doing, from this point here; the sanitary district is where this Fellow line is. The State starts at the end of the sanitary district's channel there and comes down here to that point near Utica, and that is about 60 to 65 miles, Mr. Barnes ! Mr. BARNES. Sixty-five miles in length. Mr. HULL. That is the State's part of it. Then we start here with my bill on deep waterway from this point here and it goes down along the Illinois River. Peoria is located here. It keeps on until it comes to the Mississippi River here at Grafton.

The CHAIRMAN. Now the sanitary canal is artificial, is it not? Mr. HULL. Yes; that is these yellow lines.

The CHAIRMAN. And this work of construction by the State is creating an artificial waterway?

Mr. BARNEs. No, sir; that is not right. The CHAIRMAN. That is what I want to know. Mr. BARNES. The sanitary district canal joins the Des Plaines River. From that point southward the stream is navigable in law and in fact. The CHAIRMAN. Wait a minute. Let us find out what stream. Mr. BARNES. The Des Plaines River and the Illinois River, both. And we begin our construction at the junction of the sanitary canal and the Des Plaines River and carry the improvement through the Des Plaines River down to the junction with the Kankakee River, thence down the Illinois River

The CHAIRMAN. Wait a minute. At Kankakee the Des Plaines unites with the Illinois River.

91739—24-PT 1-9

Mr. BARNES. The Kankakee and the Des Plaines form the Illinois River. They are called two separate streams until they get to that point, and from there on down they are the Illinois.

Mr. SwEer. The Illinois River flows to the Mississippi River?
Mr. BARNES. Yes, sir.
Mr. HULL. What town does the Kankakee come in at?

Mr. BARNES. Not at any town; it is about 12 miles south of Joliet. The Des Plaines comes down from the north, west of the Chicago River.

The CHAIRMAN. What I wanted to get plain on the record, Mr. Barnes, is the fact as to whether any part of what you are constructing is wholly artificial, or whether it is a development of a natural waterway.

Mr. BARNEs. It is the development of a natural waterway with the exception of about 13,000 feet where we cut off a bend to avoid the disturbance of existing rights, water power, and of that nature, and at that point we divert into a land line about 13,000 feet in length. All of the balance is entirely within the river bed.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. BARNES. The present situation hasThe CHAIRMAN. How much do you say in length you have constructed ?

Mr. BARNES. We have built the walls for the Marseilles lock; we are now building the walls for the Lockport lock at the junction with the sanitary canal.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you started at the south end?

Mr. BARNES. We have started at the second lock from the south end.

Mr. Hull. This [producing map] gives it to you, Mr. Dempsey.

Mr. BARNES. Mr. Dempsey, if you will refer to the map opposite page 10 of the report that I want to submit to the committee, you will see the second lock from the lower end, the left hand end, is the one that we have completed.

The CHAIRMAN. I see, right there a little north of Marseilles,

Mr. BARNES. That is south of Marseilles, the lock we have completed; and you see the dotted line there shows the length of the canal outside of the river bed, and that diversion was made because of power developments at Marseilles that are now

The CHAIRMAN. Do those right angle turns that are now-
Mr. BARNES. Those are miles.

The CHAIRMAN. Those right angle drops; are those drops in the river?

Mr. BARNES. Those are the drops that will exist when the canal is completed. The ragged line is now the bottom of the river.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you done any work besides the completing of that Marseilles lock?

Mr. BARNES. Yes, sir; we are under process of constructing th lock at Lockport. That is the upper right hand one on the map.

Mr. MANSFIELD. That is where you join the sanitary canal!
Mr. BARNES. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. You say you have started on that lock at Lock-

Mr. BARNES. Yes, sir. That is also a land lock. As I say, it is just outside of the Des Plaines River.

port?

The CHAIRMAN. What is the length of this section of the river which is to be improved by the State of Illinois ? Mr. BARNES. About 65 miles.

The CHAIRMAN. And is there any rock excavation to make it a 9-foot channel? Mr. BARNES. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Where?

Mr. BARNES. If you will notice, rock is indicated on the map, a hatchured line. Just above the Marseilles Lock there is about 13 or 2 miles of shallow lock excavation.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you indicate that, you say?

Mr. BARNES. You see the lower line there, the hatchured line; there are two lines above one another.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. BARNEs. The upper is earth and the lower one is rock. The CHAIRMAN. Why do you have the blue below the second line? That would indicate water, would it not? Does that blue line below the second line indicate the depth to which you are going?

Mr. BARNES. This is rather a misleading point in the diagram. That blue represents the natural river depth. The broken line that you see is put there to represent the part where we have diverted from the river bed. If you will notice on the plat above it, the canal diverts from the river for a distance of about 3,000 feet, and the point that you have in mind shows both the depth of water at the river and also in the canal. We are making a cut there of about 12 feet in derch.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is through rock?

Mr. BARNES. That is through rock, yes, sir; and we are making that 2 feet dee per than the law requires. The law only---

The CHAIP.MAN. With the belief that the money will be sufficient?

Mr. BARNES. We know it will be. I am glad you brought that question up. I have made complete, estimates for the entire work. We have det contracts for two-fifths of it at figures materially below my estiniates, and my estimates showed that the canal could be completed for less than $20,000,000.

TheCHAIRMAN. Is the State doing the entire work by contract?
Mr./ BARNEs. The law permits both; either way.
The CHAIRMAN. And how are you doing it?

Mr. BARNES. These two locks are let under contract. We expect to do some of the work by hired labor.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Barnes. Mr. BARNES. Now, as to navigation. The situation that presents itself in the West is this: Chicago wants an outlet to the sea. We have a natural waterway from New Orleans for some 1,000 miles northward with a depth of 9 feet up to the junction with the Ohio Ráver at Cairo: from the junction with the Ohio River to the junction with the Missouri River we have a Federal project calling for an 8-foot depth, not yet completed. From the junction of the Missouri River to the mouth of the Illinois River we have a 6-foot project, actually only 3 feet deep. (The CHAIRMAN. You have a 6-foot project? Mr. BARNES. The Federal Government has a 6-foot project not pel completed, and over that reach it is about 3 to 3 feet in depth.

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