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The CHAIRMAN. For navigation purposes?
Mr. Shaw. For navigation purposes.

Mr. SWEET. On the Èrie Barge Canal, with 1,200 feet per second, it gives you a current of three-fourths of a mile' an hour, and 10,000 would be absolutely prohibitive.

Mr. Shaw. Surely. Mr. SWEET. Mr. Haynes, your interest is in the commercial side of the development of the waterway?

Mr. HAYNES. That is correct.

Mr. SWEET. And, so far as that is concerned, sufficient water to accomplish the commercial side, the handling of freight in that zone, is the extent of your interest?

Mr. HAYNES. Yes. Mr. Hull. I want to answer a question that was asked by the Chairman. In the diverting of this water at the rate of 1,000 cubic feet, I am reliably informed by engineers who 'know exactly what they are talking about, that in order to carry on the project we would have to build locks through the Illinois River at a very heavy expense, not only for building the locks but for continuing to operate the locks, which is an expensive proposition. These locks would be different from what I will state later on that the State is building, These are additional locks that would have to go even below Peoria. Another thing, if you do not give them the 10,000 cubic feet, or in substance that amount, then you will have to dig the canal deeper south of St. Louis and south of Cairo, and by getting this 10,000 cubic feet you are rid of the locks and of all those difficulties. That is the reason that the 10,000 cubic feet is so imperative to make this canal a success.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, on the question of the construction of the canal, the committee, I take it, would have to depend upon the advice of the engineers. They advise as to the manner of construction, and I do not think that any of us are expert enough to determine whether it is better to have locks or whether it is necessary to have locks. They recommend the diversion of 1,000 cubic feet per second; they recommend the improvement of this waterway to a depth of 8 feet, and they state how it shall be done.

Now, I take it that they recommend what in their judgment as experts on the subject is the best way to improve this waterway. That is their course in regard to all waterway improvements. They do not recommend obsolete methods; they do not recommend anything unnecessarily expensive. They recommend the most economical, the most modern, the most approved, the most expert way to do the work, and we must take it, until the evidence is to the contrary, that that is what they have recommended in this case.

Mr. Shaw. Mr. Chairman, referring to your statement a moment ago, in which you set forth the points to consider in discussing the 1,000 cubic feet and an 8-foot channel, and further as to the amount of water necessary for sanitation purposes for the Chicago Sanitary District, let me add to that this point: There is another very vital question to be taken into consideration, and that is the question of damages from overflow and from pollution as a result of this flow of water from Lake Michigan throughout the entire length and breadth of the Illinois River Valley.

Mr. HULL. Mr. Chairman, I will answer that, because the bill we are discussing provides for all of that—not damages, but for taking care of the overflow.

Mr. Shaw. I just wanted to mention that that was another thing that will have to be considered as we go along in this hearing:

In reference to the dams and the 1,000 cubic feet, we already have four dams in the Illinois River-two State dams and two Federal dams. Do you mean, Mr. Hull, that there would have to be dams in addition to those four?

Mr. HULL. I mean that those dams would have to come out and new dams be put in.

Mr. Shaw. For 1,000 cubic feet?
Mr. HULL. Yes; that is what I mean.

Mr. HAYNES. Mr. Chairman, in so far as Chicago is concerned, studies have been made by the United States Engineers Office, and a drawing as to the proposed barge terminal, which we offer in evidence.

(The papers referred to are as follows:)

MEMORANDUM No. 6 Ox ('HICAGO'S HARBOR PROBLEM.

UNITED STATES ENGINEER OFFICE,

Chicago, Ill., December 12, 1923. 1. The shippers and merchants of Chicago have been interesting themselves of late in facilities for collecting and loading, interchanging, unloading and distributing the freight which is expected to be transported over the so-called “Lakes-to-the-Gulf waterway” when completed. They realize, rightly, that such operations do not take care of themselves; that considerable study must be given the problem, and that an exercise of judicious foresight in planning for the future is necessary at the present time.

2. The transportation act of 1920 made it the duty of the Corps of Engineers of the War Department on duty connected with the improvement of rivers and harbors to study terminal problems affecting these works and confer with the local interests with a view to their solution, the object being to insure the maximum efficient development of all means of transportation. The district engineer of the Chicago district, acting in pursuance of the provisions of this law, has studied the local situation, and at various times has issued memoranda in which were discussed some of its phases. Terminal problems of the Lakes-to-the-Gulf waterway will be considered in the following discussion :

3. Irrespective of character of freight or cargo, classes of carriers, and transfer agencies, the sole object of a terminal is to facilitate the transference of cargo between carriers wherever made necessary by the conditions of the journey. This transference between carriers is required universally, except at industrial plants situated on the water front or siding and equipped for direct loading or unloading.

4. In facilitating interchange between carriers due regard must be given to the capacity of the highways of transport involved, for neither the streets, nor the railroads, nor the harbors, nor the waterways should be unduly overloaded. Solutions should be sought which will tend to distribute the terminal burden equally. A city should not seek, nor should it be called upon, to provide or authorize terminals which will add unreasonably to the congestion of its streets. On the other hand, a city can not hope to prosper if it is unreasonably obstructive in its terminal policies.

5. Decentralization of commercial and industrial activities and the transportation facilities essential thereto is of primary importance. A city which adopts and pursues such a policy of decentralization will not find itself garroted every decade or so by traffic conditions.

6. Having these fundamentals in mind it will be easier to indicate a reasonable solution of the general terminal problem of the Lakes-to-the-Gulf-wa

1 Drawing not printed.

terwar. A large part of the commerce to be accommodated at Chicago will in all probability be industrial; that is, will consist of commodities shipped from or to large industries located along the waterway. Coal will form part of this, while grain and manufactured goods for export, building materials for local use, and imported raw materials will constitute the balance of the industrial freight. Manufacturers will be quick to take advantage of the service offered and provide themselves with necessary loading, unloading, and storage facilities. Industrial sites along the Chicago River and connecting channels should be in great demand.

7. Lest such a demand on the part of industrial interests create a scarcity of suitable terminal locations the importance of the selection and itcquisition at the present time of sites for public terminals is stressed.

8. The construction of the waterway would not be justified if it were to be used to the sole advantage and benefit of owners of water-front property. The cost of the construction of that portion between Lockport and Utica is borne by the people of the entire State of Illinois, while the l'ederal Governmen improves and maintains that portion below Utica. The waterway should provide such economies in transportation as to make it profitable for many shippers located off the waterway to use whatever means of transportation is available to reach it. For this reason plans for the future should include arrangements for interchange of goods between barge and lake carrier, barge and railroad car, and barge and truck.

9. ('ommodities interchanged between barges and lake carriers probudily will include Ilinois coal destined for lake ports, manufactured goods from places like Milwaukee, Racine, and Detroit for export, imported raw materials, and lumber. Facilities for interchange may be provided at the old Government breakwater off Grant Park where lake vessels may moor outside with barges in the quiet water inside, locomotive cranes or other transfer machinery being installed on the breakwater itself to effect the transfer. The importance of performing this operation on the lake front should be kept in mind so that the ultimate discontinuance of the use of the river as a terminal for lake vessels will not be hampered.

10. Interchange between barges and railroad cars should be arranged for where belt-line service is possible. Universal interchange would thus be provided and all railroads entering the city or doing business in the ('heago industrial district would have equal privileges as far as transference of goods to and from the waterway is concerned. Three sites suggest themselves at the present time. The first is where the Indiana Harbor Belt Railroad crosses the main drainage canal of the sanitary district west of Summit. The second is where the Belt Railroad of Chicago (rosses the drainage canal east of ('icero Avenue. The third is immediately west of the Ashland Avenue Bridge over the West Fork of the Chicago River, at which location the Chicago River and Indiana Railroad ('o. may be reached. Selection of the site ordinarily would be determined by the costs of real estate and also by the belt line which could offer the greatest inducements in the war of interchange facilities with other railroads, favorable switching charges to industries located on sidings, and a great number of prospective customers of water transportation. However, as the location at South Ashland Avenue will also serve a downtown terminal for interchange between barges and trucks, it would be more logical to select that site.

11. At this rail interchange terminal dock houses, will be necessary for the storage of goods awaiting shipment. These houses should have freight car loading platforms paralleling the water front on which located. For interchange of bulk commodities and heavy goods such as structural steel, open yards will be required, paralleling the water front and provided with cranes or other suitable unloading devices and with railroad spurs. Suitable classification and storage yards for railroad cars are an essential.

12. ('onmodities interchanged between barges and trucks will be of a general nature: i. e, consisting largely of package freight. For the reception, storage, and safe-keeping of these goods awaiting shipment dock houses or transit sheds located on the waterway or on siips leading from it will be necessary. The policy of the railroails in providing modern, attractive, and commodious downtown freight houses is one which well might be emulated. Dilapidated dock houses will attract no more trade these modern days than an insanitary restaurant. The city has a right to expect a certain amount of dignity and good appearance in the structures that so conspicuously line the river banks.

13. These downtown barge terminals should be located within easy trucking distance of a large number of shippers and at points where access by street may be had without creating too much congestion. Three locations are suggested for these, any one of which will have ample capacity for some time to come, but all of which may be needed ultimately. These are, (1) west of South Ashland Avenue on the south bank of the West Fork of the Chicago River ; (2) at the North Avenue turning basin, where the canal and river meet at the north end of Goose Island; and (3) at Lake Street, where the main branch of the Chicago River forks to form the north and south branches.

14. A tentative plan for the terminal at Lake Street has been prepared and is submitted as an exhibit to this memorandum. Such an arrangement should be able to handle in the neighborhood of 1,000,000 tons of general cargo per year.

15. Terminal developments should not be left entirely to the land or water carriers whose actions are too often prompted by the exigencies of competition or considerations of local importance. These questions should be decided by municipalities under State and Federal guidance so that the State and National factors involved will not be overlooked. It is not necessary that the municipal, State, or Federal authorities build or operate the terminals, but they should make plans for them in general, and take such steps as will require future construction and operation to be in accord with those plans.

16. Acquisition by the city of the necessary sites, easements, and rights of way at the present time would place Chicago at the top of the list of progressive municipalities. Then when the State completes the waterway and the Federal barge line and others seek to do business here, wisely chosen sites will be available which the city may develop or lease to others for the same purpose.

RUFUS W. PUTYAN, Jajor, Corps of Engineers, District Engineer, Chicago District. Mr. Haynes. We also would like to point out that many receivers and shippers have to-day large plants and warehouses on the Chicago River where the water stage is fairly stable, and we would like to file before this hearing closes the names of those plants, which represent millions of investment, built and designed for direct interchange through the water service.

The foregoing statement is subscribed to by the following bodies : Illinois Chamber of Commerce, Chicago Association of Commerce, Chicago Shippers' Conference Association, Peoria Association of Commerce, Joliet Association of Commerce, Bloomington Association of Commerce, East St. Louis Chamber of Commerce, Cairo Association of Commerce, Kankakee Chamber of Commerce, La Salle Chamber of Commerce, Ottawa Chamber of Commerce, Pekin Association of Commerce, Champaign Chamber of Commerce, Decatur Association of Commerce, Moline Business Men's Association, Quincy Chamber of Commerce, Morris Chamber of Commerce. Sterling Association of Commerce, Jerseyville Chamber of Commerce, White Hall Chamber of Commerce, Chicago Heights Chamber of Commerce, Rockford Chamber of Commerce, Lockport Merchants' Association.

Mr. O'Connor of Louisiana. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that these gentlemen who are in attendance at this session and who will testify in all probability before we get through, give me information on this subject : What percentage of the 120,000,000 tons of traffic that went over the lakes ultimately found its way into export or was distributed in sections of the country that would be benefited by the reduced rate brought into effect as a result of this development proposed by Mr. Hull? I know it is something of a poser, but if anybody can give information on that subject I think it would be informative and enlightening to the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you would find the larger answer to your question in this way: That 120,000,000 tons includes both westbound and eastbound traffic. Now, if you take the traffic at the western termini of the Great Lakes and then the traffic at Cleveland and Buffalo, and add those together, you would probably get a very large

Mr. O'Coxxor of Louisiana (interposing). Well, it is because I am not of a mathematical turn of mind and I thought I would let somebody in the audience solve the problem for me.

Mr. PEAVEY. Mr. Chairman, I think the gentleman's question is largely answered in the articles presented by the attorney general of the State of Wisconsin in a suit that is pending at the present time, wherein he states that over 80 per cent of the total tonnage carried on the Great Lakes is in coal and steel.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is true.
Mr. Peavey. None of which is exported at all.
The CHAIRMAN. It is just for domestic consumption?
Mr. PEAVEY. It is just for domestic consumption.

Mr. O'Connor of Louisiana. Then, leaving aside the export, what percentage of the remaining 80 per cent would be distributed in sections of the country that would benefit by the reduced rates which Mr. Hull claims would spring into existence as the result of the development of this enterprise contemplated by the Hull bill? Is that something of a poser?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I think so.

Mr. HAYNES. May I inquire right here, are you directing yourself to freight that moves on the Great Lakes going into the interior?

Mr. O'Connor of Louisiana. Yes. I said, what percentage of the 120,000,000 tons referred to by the chairman would ultimately go into export and into sections of the country that would benefit by a reduced rate through the development of the waterway? Mr. Peavey said that 80 per cent of it evidently was of a local character.

The CHAIRMAN. For domestic consumption.

Mr. O'CONNOR of Louisiana. For domestic consumption; and I want to know what percentage of that 80 per cent would go into sections of the country that would benefit by a reduced rate as a result of this waterway development contemplated by the Hull bill.

The CHAIRMAN. I think I can give you a line on that. Take your steel; it is manufactured at Pittsburgh and Buffalo and is distributed from there, and there is a water route through a large section of the country from both points. Take your coal that goes to Duluth, Chicago, and Milwaukee, and is intended for local consumption and for consumption beyond, in the great West. That goes by rail and would not be affected by this waterway at all, nor would your steel be affected by this waterway, because your great steel manufacturing centers are Pittsburgh and Buffalo. Pittsburgh is the greatest of all, and Buffalo is rapidly becoming a great steel manufacturing center.

Mr. O'CONNOR of Louisiana. As my name suggests, Mr. Chairman, I am not a descendant of Euclid; consequently I would like some mathematician to help me solve the intricacies of the problem.

The CHAIRMAN. I will be glad if anybody can give the gentleman any information on that question.

Mr. HAYNES. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say right here, if I may, that that is very interesting, but it is only just about half the

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