Senator NEELY. Has the mining business which you have conducted in Ohio, and West Virginia been generally profitable during the last 20 or 30 years?

Mr. PURSGLOVE. It never has been profitable except when we had strikes of war or something of that sort.

Senator NEELY. And subsequent to the war and before the adoption of the coal code under the National Recovery Act, had not the condition of the coal industry become chaotic?

Mr. PURSGLOVE. Yes, sir; ruinous.

Senator NEELY. Operators were generally poverty-stricken, and their employees were not working at all or were working for starvation wages?

Mr. PURSGLOVE. All operators that I know of are practically bankrupt, including ourselves, and the miners have nothing that I know of.

Senator NEELY. Was not that condition general throughout West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Ohio?

Mr. PURSGLOVE. Yes, sir.

Senator NEELY. You think the enactment of this bill would prove beneficial to the industry generally?

Mr. PURSGLOVE. I think it would be in the right direction.

Senator NEELY. Mr. Pursglove, is there anything else that you wish to state?

Mr. PURSGLOVE. No; I do not think so, unless you want to ask me something.

Senator NEELY. Is Mr. E. H. Davis of Ohio present?

STATEMENT OF E. H. DAVIS, CHAIRMAN BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF THE NEW YORK COAL CO., COLUMBUS, OHIO

Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Chairman, my name is E. H. Davis. I am chairman of the board of directors of the New York Coal Co., Columbus, Ohio, and am representing at this hearing the Ohio Control Association, an association representing 80 percent of the coal production of the State of Ohio and every type of mine producer in the State of Ohio.

We merely desire to make a statement here today to the effect that we favor some permanent legislation with reference to the coal business and that we favor some of the provisions of the Guffey bill, but we have been unable up to this time to crystallize the suggestions we desire to make. We are requesting that we be given an opportunity to make this appearance before the committee is ended, with these suggestions. Other than that, we have no statement to make at this

time.

Senator NEELY. You may have that opportunity. At present, would you say that you generally favor the principles of this bill?

Mr. DAVIS. We will have some constructive suggestions to make with reference to the production, marketing, and probably some of the labor provisions of the bill.

Senator NEELY. Subject to the amendments or proposals that you have in mind, are you favorable to the bill or are you opposed to it? Mr. DAVIS. We are favorable to the bill.

Senator NEELY. Is Mr. W. A. Jones of Pennsylvania present.

STATEMENT OF WALTER A. JONES, ALTOONA, PA.

Mr. JONES. Mr. Chairman, my name is Walter A. Jones. I reside at Altoona, Pa. I have been connected with the bituminous-coal industry in that area for about 18 years as secretary and treasurer of various associations.

The area produces about 37,000,000 tons a year. We find ourselves in a position similar to that stated for Ohio, due to the fact that we have been so busy on labor problems and code work that we have not had an opportunity to assemble the membership of our organization. Informally I have discussed the bill at considerable length with the members and I am convinced that in the main they approve the the major portions of the bill. However, I would like to follow in Ohio's footsteps and reserve some time so that we may present a formal statement to your committee.

Senator NEELY. Mr. Jones, are you generally favorable to the principles of the bill?

Mr. JONES. I think in general we are.

Senator NEELY. You believe that some sort of stabilizing measure is necessary for the coal industry?

Mr. JONES. Yes, sir.

Senator NEELY. Is Mr. Berquist present?

STATEMENT OF FRED BERQUIST, BITUMINOUS COAL PLANNING DIVISION OF THE N. R. A.

Mr. BERQUIST. Mr. Chairman, I have not come prepared to comment on the bill. I was asked a question as to whether I could supply some information with respect to the percentages of coal being sold at other than code prices. That is the only comment that I have to make.

Senator NEELY. Do you mean below code prices?

Mr. BERQUIST. At other than code prices, which means predominantly below code prices. There may be a little bit of that percentage which represents coal sold above the code prices.

Senator NEELY. Have you the requested information available there?

Mr. BERQUIST. Yes, sir; I have. I might say that our first showing of the quantity of coal that was sold at code prices-that is, for the month of November 1933-showed that about 60 percent of the coal sold was under contract at other than code prices. For division no. 1, that was about 31 percent under the code scale of prices.

As the months rolled by and contracts expired, that percentage naturally has been reduced. I might indicate, in division no. 1, the nature of that reduction. The eastern subdivision showed in April, 39 percent; May, 29.8 percent; June, 25 percent.

Western Pennsylvania decreased 35 percent to 19 percent over that period, April as compared with June; northern West Virginia from 34 percent to 28 percent; southern subdivision no. 1 from 28 percent to 22 percent; division no. 2, Illinois, from 56 to 55 percent. That is peat mines. For strip mines, 72 to 65 percent; division 3, from 63 to 45 percent. All of them indicate, I think, in each instance, some decline.

I think of particular interest are the figures showing the percentages after the 1st of July. Many of the contracts ran out at the end of the "coal year ", so-called, at the end of March, and the others expired at the end of June.

The percentages for those areas that we have after July, which are probably more significant, are for the month of July, for five subdivisions of division 1; 17 percent was the amount sold under contracts at other than code prices.

In August that percentage was for four subdivisions, 18 percent; for September for four subdivisions that percentage was 15.4 percent, in division 1.

Our figures are not complete for division 2. I do not think they are particularly meaningful.

Alabama division 3 showed a marked decline, and for the month of July it showed 16.6 percent; August, 5 percent; September, 3.8 percent; and October, 5.6 percent.

As to data showing the percentage of coal that might be sold at the present time or in recent months at other than code prices, we have no data. There are no data extant that are available to us.

You have heard a great deal said about contracts and offerings being made at other than code prices. As to its extent, there is no definite knowledge, although a great deal is said about such sales being made at other than code prices.

Senator NEELY. Are you not prepared to state whether you favor the bill?

Mr. BERQUIST. We are making now a rather detailed study in terms of our statistics, of course, which we hope to have ready very shortly and which may throw some light on the matter of variable costs. I think a great deal of this matter of using average costs needs to be examined very closely. As between districts of competing coals you may find a considerable spread in the average cost. It would seem that there would be some difficulty in setting a minimum price based upon average cost between areas which are directly competitive based only on their average cost. The extent to which those variations happen to exist I am not prepared to say at the moment, and I cannot give any further statement with respect to that. We hope to have something prepared, and if the committee desires we would be glad to supply it.

Senator NEELY. Do you not believe that further regulation of the coal industry is necessary?

Mr. BERQUIST. Generally, Senator, I think everyone will agree that the coal industry needs assistance.

Senator NEELY. Are there any others present who wish to be heard this afternoon? If not, we shall adjourn until 10:30 tomorrow morning.

(Thereupon, at 4:30 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned to meet at 10:30 a. m., Friday, Feb. 22, 1935.)

Pursuant to adjournment, the subcommittee reconvened in the caucus room, 318 Senate Office Building, at 10:30 a. m., Senator M. M. Neely (chairman) presiding.

Present: Senators Neely (chairman), Moore, Minton, and Davis. Senator NEELY. The committee is ready to proceed.

STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT L. RAMSAY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA

Representative RAMSAY. My name is Robert L. Ramsay, and I represent the First District of West Virginia in Congress at the present time, and have for the last two terms.

My district, like a great part of West Virginia, is a coal-mining district, and I believe that all of us will agree-all who live not only in my district, but in West Virginia-that there is need for some legislation that will tend to stabilize the coal industry.

During the last 10 years, I suppose, the coal industry has been prostrate. I have seen various mining towns and villages just wither, the inhabitants disappear, mines shut down. Practically all our miners have been in bankruptcy during the last 10 years. I believe the largest independent coal company, probably, is in the hands of a receiver, the Consolidated, or is in bankruptcy. As Senator Neely knows, in his own home town, the same conditions prevail. I have seen it when coal was prosperous, and I have seen it when it was not prosperous. The great mining industry surrounds his community.

I was told in 1932 that when a miner on George's Run went to work in the morning, whenever he could get a day's work in a week or in a month, he would go to work without anything to eat. He would go in there on an empty stomach and load a car of coal, if he was fortunate enough to get one to load, and thus be able to get a little credit at the store and get something to eat. I saw men during that time without shoes, with sacks wrapped around their feet, in these mining camps. It was a deplorable condition. It certainly demonstrated that under competition such as there was in the coal-mining business, and the rugged individualism that ex

isted, you could not run a coal business successfully. It is necessary, of course, as I believe we all agree, that there must be some control in some way. The only way that I know of is proposed in this bill by a quota. I think we have got to come to that.

I believe that all of those who live in a mining State must realize that there should be some permanent law to control the production and the price of coal. We well remember the chaotic conditions that existed in the coal-mining industry before the advent of the codes. I believe that if the N. R. A. could point to no other accomplishment but the coal code it would justify its existence.

Any one visiting the coal sections of West Virginia before the adoption of the code could not help but be struck with the hopeless condition of the coal mining sections; mines closing and abandoned; whole towns and communities in destitution and want.

Senator MINTON. Have you ever been in the coal business yourself?

Representative RAMSAY. No. I have never been a coal operator. Senator MINTON. Or a miner?

Representative RAMSAY. No. Well, in my early days, before I studied law, I worked around the mines, principally clay mines. I worked at the clay mines in Hancock County, but I am familiar with the mining business. My father was a miner, and my uncle was an operator. As one of the early coal operations, I believe, in West Virginia, my great-uncle shipped coal on the Ohio River by flatboat in 1840 from Hancock County to Cincinnati.

I have heard many able men exclaim during that period it would have been better for West Virginia if the coal in our State had never been developed. But, with the advent of the code, the industry has taken on new life. The restriction of cut-throat competition has shown clearly the destructive forces of unrestrained competition and rugged individualism.

Before the advent of the code, West Virginia was covered with blanket injunctions which restrained men from entering into labor organizations to deal collectively with the operators of mines. Company stores, where extortionate charges were made for goods sold, was the custom, and the life of a miner had descended to one of degradation and penury. But, with the advent of the code conditions changed as if by magic. Working conditions were improved, collective bargaining was recognized, and mines are now operating for the first time within 10 years at a profit.

In the matter of injunctions, they even went so far as to restrain not only from belonging to a labor union, but from trying to persuade other people to belong to them. We had injunctions all over West Virginia. Practically every Federal court and Circuit court granted injunctions restraining men from belonging to the union, or even discussing with another man that it would be advisable that he should belong to a union.

The first case I ever tried in my life I tried before what we called the "Old Iron" judge, John J. Jackson. Twelve men in Hancock County were arrested for violating a restraining order preventing them from interfering with the operation of coal mines. The crime with which these men were charged, was that they had crossed the Ohio River, had gone into the State of Ohio and had met a train at Freeman Station, where certain men who had been employed by