our citizens, whether or not they have children; whether or not they are workers.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you, Ms. Maymi, for a most thoughtful

statement.

In looking through your statement I was struck by a number of points that you made that I would like to take the liberty of simply rattling off very rapidly. They seem to me to be some of the highlights of your testimony and I regard them as especially significant because of your responsibilities as Director of the Women's Bureau.

One of the points you make is the steady upward trend in the number of working wives with children, and the very sharp increase since 1960 in the percentage of the labor force of married women with husbands, and with children under age six.

Second, you point out that the data show the need for child care facilities is not only acute now, but will increase sharply over the years, and you note that by 1985, 6.6 million mothers, aged 20 to 44 with children under 5 will work or be looking for work, and the demand for child care facilities can be expected to increase accordingly. Third, I think an important point is that women who are unable to find good care for their children may be forced to stay at home and depend on welfare.

Fourth, you make the point that it is unfair to the child, and selfdefeating to society, to settle for mere custodial care or, even worse, you say, for substandard care.

Five, you note the importance of working parents' involvement in the care of their children, and that is, of course, central to this legislative proposal.

Six, you note that good day care is important, not only to the children, but to the parents.

Seven, that day care is not accurately thought of exclusively as a welfare measure, but it is important to female and male parents at all economic levels.

Eight, you make the point, after having reviewed a number of approaches to day care, that each meets a particular type of need, and that we need diversity so parents may have a choice.

Finally, you make the point that day care should be broadly interpreted, and not confined to one specific definition.

I find these all very perceptive and persuasive points, and I thank you for highlighting them.

After that observation, I just have one question to put to you, Ms. Maymi. I wonder if you can comment on one of the issues we have to consider; namely, your view of the role of proprietary or profitmaking institutions in supplying the kinds of child and family services contemplated in this field.

In your view, is it appropriate that such kinds of institutions receive assistance under this bill?

MS. MAYMI. I think, as I have pointed out, the trend is toward the involvement of all persons responsible in society for providing support assistance to working families, so that means unions and employers, and social service agencies are all coming together in order to develop the support system to the working family, and especially working mothers.

In all those models that we have discovered, of course, there is the financial involvement to a degree of the industry or the union or the private agency, but also there is the equal involvement financially of parents who need to assist in supporting this kind of program.

The problem in all cases has been the lack of funds, and the fact that in order to keep the centers open, there always has to be a struggle.

In the ones that are now in operation we find that survival from one year to the other depends on the voluntary wishes of whoever makes the decisions about money. We feel that in order to increase the support, there should be some kind of incentives.

There are some incentives for private industry; for example, some tax exemptions for providing facilities for child care in the working place, but I think that the models are more innovative.

They would involve the voucher system, where employers provide certain allowances for the care of the children of the employees outside in the community, or it could be also an arrangement with private centers, where employers and unions will share in the costs of child care.

So that, then, I think we need to encourage participation of all elements in our society so that we can eventually take care of this huge need that cannot be solved by only involvement of Government. Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you very much, Ms. Maymi.

Senator Stafford.

Senator STAFFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Maymi, I enjoyed your statement, too, and I think it is very helpful to this subcommittee.

I noted your disavowal in the first paragraph about the legislation before the committee, but let me ask you if you are in any position on behalf of the Department of Labor to indicate whether the Department supports, or takes a hands-off attitude so far as S. 626 and the companion House bill are concerned?

Ms. MAYMI. I am not prepared to represent the position of the Department.

Senator STAFFORD. I am not surprised at your answer at this point in time.

I note on page two, near the bottom, you say: "Over 12 million children were in families where the father was either absent, unemployed, or not in the labor force."

My question here is: is that situation which you refer to broadly across the country, or is limited to urban areas, or to rural areas? MS. MAYMI. These are national figures, and we can very well generalize that this is the situation in small communities as well as large communities, where the women are not only participating in the support of the family, but also increasingly assuming full responsibility for being head of the family.

Senator STAFFORD. One final question. On the first page of your statement you referred to the steady upward trend in the number of working wives with children. Could you comment on what impact the current unemployment rates might have had on the percentage of working mothers in the work force?

Ms. MAYMI. Obviously unemployment has affected all workers. I have some figures that show us that in March 1974, there were 35,321,000 women 16 and over in the labor force, including 33.2 million women employed, and 2.1 million women unemployed.

In January the number of women in the labor force increased by 1.1 million to 36.4 million, of whom 32.9 million were employed, and 3.5 million were unemployed, so we see unemployment is affecting the

women.

We are concerned that it is affecting us in a disproportionate manner. Senator STAFFORD. Thank you very much, and rather than take more of the subcommittee's time, in view of the number of witnesses, Mr. Chairman, I will ask the witness if she would submit for our record the urban and rural breakdown on matrimonial statistics.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I might say, Ms. Maymi, Mr. Bell of California has asked me to submit to each of the witnesses a list of questions to which he would appreciate replies in writing.

Ms. MAYMI. Certainly; I will be happy to.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Of course, the answers benefit the subcommittee, as well.

Mrs. Chisholm.

Mrs. CHISHOLM. Thank you very much.

Of course, as we attempt to put together a comprehensive piece of child care legislation, one of the purposes of inviting all the witnesses here is to get their viewpoints, or suggestions.

On page one of your statement, you indicate that you "have been invited here, not to support the bills under consideration, nor to critique them, but to express the concern of the Bureau and our thinking on the subject of child care services for working families."

Your statement is a very good statement. It gives us the statistics and figures, and we usually need statistics and figures in order to be able to substantiate what we are trying to legislate.

But, as Director of the Women's Bureau-the Bureau that has the responsibility for the needs and aspirations, and some relief, if you will, for the thousands of women in this country-it is very hard for me to ask you about 10 or 11 questions which I wanted to ask you for the record if you are not here to support the bills, because my questions deal specifically with certain aspects of the bills.

What I would suggest to you, Ms. Maymi, I would submit to you a list of questions, and then maybe at some time you could answer those questions only in light of being able to help us to put together legislation that is going to be very meaningful and relevant to the thousands of women who do seek relief via the Women's Bureau.

Ms. MAYMI. I would be very happy to receive the questions.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Cornell?

Mr. CORNELL. For the moment, I like to assume the position perhaps of what you might call a devil's advocate. It is not quite an appropriate role for me.

[Laughter.]

The figures that you have given here, even though you say do not speak, of course, for the Department of Labor, would certainly indicate the need to expend considerable additional funds for child care

centers.

My question is this: Would it not be better, instead of using funds for such child care facilities, to spend more in some program that would exclude the necessity for the extension of child care, and make it possible that there be more time, shall we say, and more opportunity, for parental care, such as, for example, comprehensive revision of our welfare system that would supplement our income in a form like negative income tax?

Ms. MAYMI. I certainly would express the Department's view of this position that we are cognizant of the very great need for child care for working families, not only for working women.

I am not prepared, however, to recommend one alternative over the other. We just have to keep in mind that because of the tremendous increase of the number of women who work full time in the labor force and who will continue to work-that that choice needs to be open to all persons. We must not assume that a parent must stay home with the children when many other options need to be open to

them.

Mr. CORNELL. Do you feel, though, that parental care-more opportunity for parental care-would be more beneficial than additional child care centers?

Ms. MAYMI. I think that the parents need that option to decide among themselves which type of care they would like to have, but I think that we have lived in this society which always assumed that a woman would have to stay home in order to take care of the child. Consequently, we are in this kind of bind now, of not having many options when women are forced to work outside their homes, and there is still no support for that family in terms of adequate care for the children.

Mr. CORNELL. Thank you, Ms. Maymi.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Zeferetti.

Mr. ZEFERETTI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, but I have no questions. Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Miller.

Mr. MILLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Maymi, I am somewhat disappointed that as an advocate within the Department of Labor you are not here to express the view of the Department on the legislation, since I think the figures that you represent certainly lead us to conclude, and unfortunately, you are not able to represent that conclusion, there is a need for this legislation. We had also hoped to hear your criticisms of the legislation.

I have just one question. On the bottom of page 3 you say, "We must not be tempted to seek out easy solutions in order to get families off relief rolls and onto payrolls."

You also say we must be careful not to settle for mere custodial care, or worse, substandard care for children. You are not implying that this legislation will create substandard care?

Ms. MAYMI. No; I was not alluding to that.

Also, I would like to comment that the invitation was extended for me to come personally, No. 1, as an advocate of v en and working mothers in the country, and also as a person who could assist this committee to emphasize the tremendous need for child care.

It was my understanding that the kinds of statistics that we would share with you would certainly assist you.

Mr. MILLER. I think your information has been very helpful. Perhaps you can answer those questions concerning specific legislation, which we will direct to you.

MS. MAYMI. Yes.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Hall.

Mr. HALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no questions.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Jeffords.

Mr. JEFFORDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask a question with respect to your statement on page 3.

"The availability of child care is often the pivot on which a woman's decision to work or remain at home turns."

I would like to find out more about the woman who does not have a husband or a man in the family. I know there has been considerable discussion this past year about the person on welfare who gets more money being on the welfare rolls than the person who is working.

I wondered if you agreed with that judgment, or if you have any knowledge as to how that affects the decision to work, and whether it is a significant factor?

Ms. MAYMI. From the point of view of the Department of Labor, and our experience-not with the welfare system, but with the training and employment of women workers-we have found that when programs have been offered with adequate training provided, as well as good child care facilities, and child care alternatives are offered, women not only tend to stay on the job, but also they tend to lead very successful involvement in the work force.

We found that women and men who have adequate child care are absent less often. We found that they stay in the training programs during the duration of the training, and this is why in the Department of Labor we have developed this model, with the intention of providing for employers the type of model that they could replicate, where the employee effectiveness and the employee's ability to work would be improved.

Mr. JEFFORDS. Talking about models, what about general availability of training for women on welfare? Is it sufficiently available, and perhaps the availability of training opportunities is the critical point rather than the availability of day care centers?

Ms. MAYMI. I did not quite understand.

Mr. JEFFORDS. Assuming training is available, is it possible for women in this situation to get employment?

Ms. MAYMI. Training and job opportunities, of course. As you know, because women are in need of work there are programs that are emerging in the country, such as women's referral centers, in order to assist them to find the proper training, the proper job opportunities, in many cases to train in nontraditional areas of employment, such as apprenticeship trades.

They are establishing outreach programs to guarantee that women. will be participating in this area.

However, if the adequate support system, such as child care, does not exist, then the woman really does not have this option to participate. Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Pressler?

Mr. PRESSLER. Thank you.

Excuse me if you have already covered this, but why are you not giving the Department of Labor's position?