the opportunity and help in the discussion to bring out the results which we all want. Let us feel then that this is an opportunity and that a duty is upon us that we shall discuss these things to help arrive at the wise course to be pursued in connection with this matter in the future. While I am on my feet let me say that we ought to adjourn shortly after 12 o'clock because it is important that by a little before 2:00 o'clock sharp we shall be inside the grounds at the old arsenal, so that the inauguration exercises of the afternoon may begin promptly. But we ought not to lose the three-quarters of an hour intervening before the noon hour, when there is much which we all want to learn from the gentlemen here who have had the actual experience in mining operations. PRESIDENT RICHARDS: As suggested by Professor Holmes, we would be glad to hear any remarks from anyone in this hall at this time. DR. JAMES DOUGLAS, OF NEW YORK: I take pleasure in cor roborating Mr. Mitchell's estimate as to the cost of electric firing. We have introduced it, after some opposition from our miners, in five of the mines of the Dawson coal fields, and it costs us about two cents a ton more than the old method. With regard to the general cost of coal, I agree perfectly with Mr. Mitchell that the cost is low, and that certain provisions to ensure safety can only be made through an increase in its cost to the public. One such method undoubtedly is through increasing the number of bosses, and raising their qualifications, both of which conditions will increase the cost of superintendence. Taking the mines of the country at large, we cannot expect to get enough thoroughly trained miners, and even if we could, the trained miner is often willing to run a risk which the inferior miner is afraid to take. The number of deaths from falling roof is appalling, and in almost every case those are due to the neglect of necessary precaution. I know as a fact that in several instances in our own mines the foreman has distinctly instructed the miner to put in a prop, but he preferred to break coal instead of obeying an order looking to his own protection, which he thought unnecessary, and fatal results followed. When dealing with that class of labor the foreman ought to see that his orders are absolutely carried out. Such a system involves an increase in the force of foremen, and therefore and increase in the cost of coal.

Quite apart, however, from the extra cost of precautionary measures to ensure safety, the cost of mining must inevitably increase as we proceed further from the outcrop. Whoever has a large area of coal, especially when there is a sudden demand, cannot resist the temptation of starting a new entry, and using up his outcrop coal. This expedient, however, can be at best only temporary; and therefore the cost of mining coal is bound to go up all over the country, and the public has to pay the increased cost, for the balance between cost and average selling prices is as low, if not lower, than it ought to be.

As I remarked yesterday evening, the freight rates on fuel are low in comparison with the rates on high-class commodities. A rise in the rates of fuel might slightly affect certain of the prominent industries of the country, but they can stand it, but even if their fuel and the transportation of their fuel should cost the large manufacturing interests a little more, this would be a small evil compared with the feeling of antagonism against the railroads in the mind of the public at large, which originates very largely in high "class" rates and the very low rates which the public know are charged on commodities.

There are a great many other phases to this subject which one cannot elucidate in a few cursory remarks, and some of you I know have had a great deal more experience than I have had in both railroading and coal mining. But during my somewhat limited experience as a railroader and during my still shorter experience as a coal miner, these are the conclusions I have come to.

Looking back over the last two or three years, there is one other conclusion I believe we must all have come to, and that is that "booms,"

so called, are extremely expensive and extremely dangerous. It can hardly be accidental that since the boom burst there have been hardly any railroad accidents, and that while the boom was in full swing railroad accidents were of almost daily occurrence. How could it be otherwise? The traffic of the country nearly doubled up. We have a certain number of skilled railroad workmen. They were not able to handle the increased traffic, and therefore firemen had to be promoted to be engineers and brakemen had to be made into conductors, with the inevitable result of accident after accident. That was the cause of many of the accidents, quite apart from another still more prevalent cause, which was that all of us, whatever position we occupied, whether we were workmen or on the executive staff, were all more or less demoralized. I am sure that we ought to pray that another boom may be deferred for just as long as heaven will be willing to protect us from such a disaster. MR. J. A. SPRINGER, OF WEST VIRGINIA: I desire to say, from the standpoint of the miner at least, that there have been some statements made relative to the causes of explosions that I cannot afford as a miner to let go without entering my challenge or protest. That statement is that the cause of the terrible explosions that we have had is a mystery or unknown. I am not sure that this is the proper time, however, to offer or give reasons of the miner for these explosions. But for the statement to go out that we do not know the cause, and that the cause is a mystery, I for one, do not wish, and I want to say now that my deliberate opinion as a miner is that the cause is known, and that cause is the dry condition of the mine. For one I am convinced of that fact. How to remedy that condition is another question altogether. But I am fully convinced that the cause of explosions in our state is and has been the dry condition of the mine. I hope it will be the pleasure of those men who have in charge this matter to bring out before this congress in a way which will give some satisfaction, the cause of these explosions and the remedy to be applied.

PRESIDENT RICHARDS: Dr. Holmes' suggestion has proved fruitful. We have a little more time yet, if you wish to occupy it.

DR. E. W. PARKER, OF WASHINGTON: We had the pleasure of listening last night to Doctor Douglas and also this morning he gave us one or two illustrations of mining at Dawson, New Mexico. What he said last night and this morning is certainly too modest, and shows Dr. Douglas' rather modest disposition. I think that the mine operators of Pennsylvania, of West Virginia, of Illinois and of other states could learn a great deal if they could visit the mining operations at Dawson. I had the pleasure of visiting that mine only a few weeks ago. The precautions taken there for the safety of the miners are certainly about the acme in the United States. I have visited coal mine operations throughout every state in the union, I think, and I have not seen any mines so well equipped for the safety of the miners as the plant at Dawson. As Doctor Douglas has already stated, the shots are electrically fired. They are not fired by shot-firers in the mines. Every miner, every employe, is out of the mine. The openings are closed by steel gates, and the shots are fired when it is impossible for there to be any loss of life, as the result of the firing of the shot.

I should also like to state in regard to what Mr. Mitchell has already said, that I corroborate his statement that our coal is too cheap. We have been making our material advancement, of which we are so proud, by the cheap fuel and at the cost of human life. The precautions to be taken for greater safety in the mines can only be taken at an increased cost, and I, as a consumer of coal, would be willing to pay my share for the increased cost of coal mining if it would produce the desired results. (Applause.)

MR. JOHN H. WALKER, OF ILLINOIS:

There is one point that has

been referred to a good many times this morning which it might not

be out of the way for me to give you our experience in dealing with, and that is the question of cheap coal. You will recall Mr. Mitchell said that the price of coal to the large consumers should be increased; with that statement I wholly agree. As a member of the miners' organization we have found that there is danger in having the price of coal generally increased, when there is a systematic method used for the purpose of discrediting the work of those who are making it necessary, for some humane or just reason, to have that added cost put on the price of coal.

In almost every instance where any action, at least of the organization, has made necessary the increase of the price of coal to the consumer, the increase has been made to the general public, the small consumer, away out of proportion to the necessary cost for the employer to meet the necessities of the occasion. That is to say, if he has 10 cents a ton added to the cost of coal production there will be practically no cost added for the large consumer who buys it, but there will be about 25 or 30 cents or 50 cents added for the small consumer, and he generally resents that sort of thing, and it has a detrimental effect, at least as regards the men who are making that increase necessary at all. We have found that if you own a railroad and you want to buy a half million tons of coal you can buy it for anywhere from 75 cents to $1.00 on the flat at the mine. If you are working on a farm, in a machine shop, on the street, as a laborer, getting $1.50 a day or $4.00 or $5.00 a day, it will cost you $2.50 or $3.00 a ton for that same coal. As the great majority of consumers are small consumers, and public sentiment in this country is created by the great majority, who are the small consumers, that action has the result of creating public opinion against the action making necessary that increased price. In the work of the Congress I think if you have any opponent to any necessary, humane, protective measures you will find that that phase of it will be used to the detriment of the Congress in its efforts to bring about such reforms.

There is one other phase of it that I wish to point out at this time. The certainties, the actual conditions, that exist can be taken care of by a systematic, well-directed organized effort either on the part of the government or our organization or both combined. The uncertainties are the things that are the cause of most troubles. One of them, faulty or blown-out shots, has been a large element in bringing about the explosions in the recent past. If you can put yourself in the place of a miner at the face, drilling a hole, it does not matter very much what the risks are, from the powder not being able to do the work, whether it is as the result of not being sufficient powder, or whether the hole was placed in a way that the shot could not do the work, the result will be a blownout shot. The wrong placing of the shot can be provided for, but if you have been accustomed to using powder of a certain strength and velocity and there is a change made in the powder without your knowing anything about it whatever, either in reducing or increasing the strength and velocity, there is an uncertainty that every miner in that mine has got to deal with, and any one of those conditions might be the means of blowing that mine up. In these days of competition it is immaterial generally to the operator whether he makes his money out of the profits in the sale of coal, or, as he generally sells the powder, whether he makes his profits out of the sale of the powder. Powder manufacturers in their fierce competition with each other may reduce prices and give inferior grades of powder, and make it attractive to the operator to buy those lower grades, and that has prevailed the last two years particularly, so that when a miner gets a keg of powder he does not really know what that powder is going to do when he starts to use it in his blasting. This is one of the things that this experimental bureau along these lines can eliminate. But my experience indicates that they will have to deal with the question by legislation; they will first have to standardize the powders, create a formula of ingredients, giving the strength that they

must have, and by law compel men who sell powder to conform to those formulae provided by statute. (Applause.)

MR. J. W. DAWSON, OF WEST VIRGINIA: I should like to mention for the information of the Congress how difficult it is, under some circumstances at least, to increase the price of coal to the large consumer. For instance, I might name a railroad, which, when you intend to develop a piece of coal property tributary to it and before they furnish you the necessary facilities, requires you to enter into a contract with that railroad to furnish them at least one-third of your product for their fuel purposes at a price fixed by the railroad. Under those conditions it will be rather difficult, of course, to increase the price of coal to some of the large consumers, at least.

In addition to that I have often heard stated, as by Mr. Mitchell this morning, that most of our fatalities in the mines are the result of inexperienced miners. If we increase our product and there is, as we all know, little or no surplus of experienced miners, I should be glad if Mr. Mitchell will explain to us what, in his judgment, is the most practical method of instructing inexperienced miners, so they will be experienced. (Applause.)

MR. MITCHELL: There is a sufficient number of experienced miners in the United States at the present time to produce all the coal that is required. One-third more men are employed as miners than are needed to produce the amount of coal we consume. That additional one-third, or that surplus of men, are the inexperienced men. You probably do not know that the average number of days the coal mines of America work is only about 200 annually, and that the men are idle one-third of the time; so that instead of employing this large number of surplus men, if the work were given to experienced men, they could produce all of the coal required, and work one-third more time. Of course I understand that the natural increase in the number of miners-that is to say, the miners' sons who learn to mine with their fathers and thus become experienced miners-has not been sufficient to keep up with the vastly increased output of coal year by year, so that the mines must depend upon outside sources for some of their labor. But there could be a system of apprenticeship that would prevent or prohibit responsibilities being given to the inexperienced men, who probably last week were doing farm-hand labor some place in continental Europe. For instance, in the state of Illinois under the present law an inexperienced man must first be employed for a period of two years as a company day laborer or he must work under the supervision of an experienced man mining coal, before he is qualified to mine upon his own responsibility. Of course these accidents, these great disasters, usually occur from some act of the coal miner. A day hand rarely causes an explosion in a mine. An explosion is often the result of a blown-out shot. It occurs by the act of some man who is working at what we call the face of the coal. And it is that sort of accident, the accident that comes from explosion, that the employment of experienced men would prevent. (Applause.)

MR. DAWSON: I do not quite agree with Mr. Mitchell in that the employment of an inexperienced man as a day laborer would fit him for the shooting and mining of coal as an experienced man. The reason for asking the question I did was to get information for myself and others who might desire it. I represent the organized portion of West Virginia. Now that state has been frequently referred to as an unorganized state. It is against the spirit if not against the rules of the organized men for a man to work as a helper, or what is known as a back-hand, or to do a piece of work and to employ others to help him to do it. With those rules in effect I cannot quite grasp how we are going to train inexperienced men without letting them go in a room by themselves. I am really anxious to get that information.

MR. CARL SCHOLZ, OF ILLINOIS: The question of the price of coal and the advance thereof is one of competition, which is largely regulated by the question of supply and demand. As long as coal mines can be developed as cheaply as they can in this country we cannot expect to have a system of operation such as exists in Germany, Belgium, France and other places referred to by Mr. Mitchell. Anyone who has been in those countries and is familiar with the method of mining by that class of people, appreciates that the conditions they are working under are quite different from ours. We have the question of farm labor to contend with. We have mines in Oklahoma where ten to twelve different languages are spoken. It is difficult to administer discipline under those conditions; whereas, in the foreign countries usually only one language is spoken, and rarely more than two or three.

The question of saving lives in the adoption of safety measures is one which goes hand in hand with mining. One gentleman a while ago stated that dust is one of the great causes of explosion. I think he is right. Dust is largely created by solid shooting, and solid shooting has been the effect of a lack of system; therefore, co-operation of the miners with the operators would reduce the death rate in the mine.

Mr. Mitchell stated that the explosions in West Virginia are due to the miners at the face. One of the most destructive explosions that I know of occurred in the middle of the day, when it must have been due to causes other than shot-firing or the miners. I have been carrying on, in behalf of our company, for the protection of our property and for the protection of our men, a series of investigations, and have recently concluded that nothing is more beneficial than the introduction of water, in the shape of sprays.

It is a well known fact that most of our explosions occur in November, December and January. Therefore, I believe that it behooves us to ascertain the conditions which exist at that time. The very same mines which explode in these cold months seem comparatively safe, or are safe, because they do not explode, in June, July and August. During that period of the year it is noticed that there is a heavy deposit of sweat in the mine, under the roof and walls, and the coal dust is fairly moist. It seems to me that what we have to do is to ascertain what the actual condition is of the atmosphere which enters the mine at that time, and try to bring about the same condition in the winter. It has been stated that the introduction of water in a mine is detrimental to the health of the employee, as shown by, experience in England. I am not concerned about conditions that exist in England. I am confining myself to the problems that we have to solve in this country, and in fact I know from my own observation, from experience that I have had, that the introduction of water in the shape of sprays cannot be carried to excess with the temperatures existing in the United States, or in any of the mines that I have visited, and I think I have been in nearly all of them. For these reasons I cannot recommend too highly the investigation of this subject.

I have prepared several papers which have been read before various interested societies, and as yet I have to hear any evidence which I cannot contradict. As far as health is concerned, our office buildings are now equipped with sprays in order to remove the dust and inject the water which is necessary for health and comfort. As far as the effect on the roof is concerned I know that the roof of the mine is affected by a change of climatic conditions, the change from wet to dry causes the roof to decay, and to maintain it constantly wet or constantly dry removes that danger, and there is no doubt that the dust can be settled by water sprays, and I cannot urge too strongly that investigations be made at the experiment stations and at mines during the safe period as well as during the danger period. (Applause.)