Dr. REEVES. The farm income of the States was 2 percent of the national income.

Senator ELLENDER. Oh.

Dr. REEVES. But the people who received the income, the farmers, people living on the farms, had 13 percent of the children. That is what I mean by that.

Senator ELLENDER. How tragic.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, if you had no public education at all, 13 percent of the population would have no education at all?

Dr. REEVES. That is right. There is one point that some of our educators have mentioned sometimes, but I do not think it has received nearly enough attention. When one of the wealthier States—and, in general, they are the States with the large cities pays money to educate children in one of the rural States, what is it really doing? To a very large extent it is paying money to educate its own future citizens. Now, that is very clear, from the figures that I have here relating to the decade from 1920 to 1930. The census of 1920 recorded slightly more than 7,000,000 children and young people from 10 to 20 years of age who were living on farms. That was in 1920. Now, as these children and young people grew older, during the following 10 years, 40 percent of them moved to towns and cities, where they were found during the census of 1930. Of those that moved to towns and cities, about 60 percent of the people of all ages who left the farm during the 10 years ending in 1930 came from farms located south of Mason and Dixon's line.

The amount of Federal aid would have to be much greater, than the amount called for in this bill before the citizens of some of our wealthier cities would be paying as much for the education of children in other States as the education of their own future citizens would cost. In other words, this bill only goes part way to adjusting the situation.

Senator ELLENDER. Doctor, all of the figures to which you are now referring, and which I believe were placed in the record at some other hearing, were based on the 1930 census, were they not?

Dr. REEVES. Yes. I do not have information as to 1940 on that. Senator ELLENDER. Has any study been made with respect to the 1940 census, so as to determine whether or not there is a difference, or whether the case has been improved or aggravated?

Dr. REEVES. I have no information on that.

Senator ELLENDER. How much of a job would it be to obtain such information?

Dr. REEVES. I doubt whether the material is available.

Senator ELLENDER. I repeat, how much of a job would it be?

Dr. REEVES. I think it would be a considerable amount of work. I would be very glad to look into that matter, and if it can be done I will do it.

Senator ELLENDER. If it is not too much of a job it might be well to compare the situation with respect to 1930 and 1940.

Dr. REEVES. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER. Just to see whether or not the situation has been improved or aggravated.

Dr. REEVES. In general we do have information that I think answers the question, but I shall be very glad to see if I can get it exactly.

I think that what happened during this decade, was that the youth in the rural areas stayed back on the farm to the extent of 1,000,000 or 2,000,000 people, those who otherwise might have migrated.

I have evidence in my office of the extent that the migration is now going on. It is going on at a very rapid rate at the moment. If I were to make a forecast, it would be that it would not be long before migration would be adjusted back to the trend that existed before the depression.

Senator ELLENDER. It might be well, if you can obtain that information, to hand it over to the committee and it will be placed in the permanent record in connection with your testimony.

Dr. REEVES. I will do my best to do that.

I think I shall not comment upon the situation with reference to these court decisions relating to Negro education, since that has been rather well covered. I understand Mr. Charles Houston is going to be here and make some further comments on that point, and Mr. Dawson has already commented on the court decisions, with reference to Negroes.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no doubt, Dr. Reeves, is there, but what the decisions have given us a problem?

Dr. REEVES. It seems to me that two things have entered into this picture that are of major importance, since I appeared before this committee before, and I do not see any way at all to handle the situation without Federal aid. One is the provision of equal educational facilities for Negroes in the 17 States that have dual educational systems. Equal educational facilities could not possibly be provided without aid from the Federal Government, unless we are willing to reduce greatly the expenditures that are now being made for children in white schools. That is the choice. I see no alternative except that choice.

Senator ELLENDER. Doctor, since you originally had intended to comment with respect to these decisions, in the light of the pending bill would you say that the bill as written would stand a test before the Supreme Court?

Dr. REEVES. I would think so; but again, I am not a lawyer. I read it with that thought in mind and it seemed to me that it would meet the situation.

The other point that represents a new situation is with reference to the provision of facilities for shildren in defense areas. That again is a major reason why Federal money is needed. I do not know whether the amount should be $115,000,000 or whether $200,000,000 is going to be needed for that purpose. I am not in a position at this moment to forecast what the defense program is going to be a year from today, or how much migration is going to be involved, but I do know that already it affects between 200,000 and 300,000 children.

The two reasons why Federal aid is needed are, first to provide better school facilities for the children and youth, and second, to provide related training in those vocational schools for the men who are working on the job in the defense industries. The latter is one of the most important parts of the present defense training program. There are many thousands of people now at work in the defense industries who are taking related training in these vocational schools during their off hours. I might say there are more than 300 schools now that are running on a 23- to 24-hour basis to provide related

training for the men who work on each of three shifts. Now, the typical situation is this: The children use those facilities, that is, the high-school children use those facilities from, let us say, 8 o'clock in the morning until 2 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and from that time on until the next morning the facilities are used by the adult workers in the defense industries.

Consideration is now being given as to how to meet the defense training program for next year. It is perfectly clear to all of us who have been working on this program that the most important single area in the defense training where we must get expansion is in related training for workers who are employed in defense industries. The schools cannot be somewhere else, they have to be there where the workers live.

Senator ELLENDER. Doctor, it is natural to assume, is it not, that if the Government keeps on concentrating defense projects in certain localities that $115,000,000 and maybe $200,000,000 would not suffice? I wonder if you are in a position to tell us, since you are connected with O. P. M., whether or not any efforts are being made so as to spread this defense work in communities that can do the work and that may be in need of such projects to maintain them?

Dr. REEVES. I do know this: While I cannot quote you figures, the pattern has changed to a very large extent in the last 2 or 3 months. For example, I recall a few months ago, the W. P. A. reported that 80 percent of the people on W. P. A. rolls lived in the areas where there were only 20 percent of the defense contracts. That pattern has changed, as I say, markedly. As I recall the later figures, the W. P. A. reports that there are now about 70 percent of the W. P. A. workers living in the areas where there are 30 percent of the defense contracts. That would represent an improvementfrom my point of view, a very marked improvement-in the last 2 or 3 months. The trend is very definite, very clear-cut in the direction in which I am sure you favor and I favor. Very great efforts have been made, I know, to bring about this change in the situation. Senator ELLENDER. To spread them around.

Dr. REEVES. That is right. It is very clear that the last reservoir, the great reservoir we are going to have to draw upon let us say 12 months from now is in the very States that would benefit the most by this bill that is now before you.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you better pray for a continuation of the war if you ever expect anything for the places where some of us live. Is that what you mean?

Dr. REEVES. I would not go that far, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Reeves, having broken in there with the remark, which was probably out of order, have you come to a stopping place?

Dr. REEVES. I have come to the end, Senator. comments to make, unless you wish to ask questions. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Dr. Reeves.

I have no other

(The memorandum submitted by Dr. Reeves is as follows:)

MEMORANDUM SUBMITTED AT HEARINGS ON S. 1313

The Advisory Committee on Education was originally appointed by the President on September 19, 1936, for the purpose of studying the existing program of Federal aid for vocational education and preparing a report with recommendations. The Committee was proceeding with this task when, in April 1937,

the President decided to broaden the functions and enlarge the membership of the Committee. The President requested the Committee to give extended consideration to the whole subject of Federal relationship to State and local conduct of education and to prepare a report. The Committee completed its work in 1939. I was asked to serve as Chairman of the Committee on Vocational Education and later as Chairman of the Advisory Committee on Education. In view of the importance of this assignment, the names and connections of other members of the Advisory Committee on Education are of interest.

OTHER MEMBERS OF THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION

Mr. William Rowland Allen is personnel director for L. S. Ayres & Co., which operates a large department store in Indianapolis, Ind.

Dr. Edmund deS. Brunner is professor of rural education, Teachers College, Columbia University. He has directed many surveys of rural life and is thoroughly familiar with the problem of rural education.

The Honorable Oscar L. Chapman is Assistant Secretary of the Department of the Interior, in which capacity he has supervision over the affairs of the Office of Education and various other bureaus.

Miss Elizabeth Christmas is secretary-treasurer of the National Women's Trade Union League and has served on various Federal advisory committees.

Mr. Gordon R. Clapp is now general manager of the Tennessee Valley Authority, Knoxville, Tenn.

The Honorable Ernest G. Draper is now a member of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System. At the time he was appointed to membership on the Advisory Committee on Education he was Assistant Secretary of Com

merce.

Miss Alice L. Edwards is a well-known economist of New York City, formerly executive secretary of the American Home Economics Association.

Dr. Mordecai Ezekiel is economic adviser to the Secretary of Agriculture. Mr. George L. Googe is southern representative of the American Federation of Labor. He is a native of Savannah, Ga., and a member of the International Printing Pressman's Union. He has represented the American Federation of Labor as a member of numerous governmental committees and conferences. Dr. Franklin P. Graham is president of the University of North Carolina. At the time the social security legislation was being formulated, he served as chairman of the Advisory Council on Economic Security.

Dr. Luther H. Gulick is a director of the Institute of Public Administration, New York City, and Eaton Professor of municipal science and administration at Columbia University. Since 1935 he has been director of the Regent's Inquiry snto the Character and Cost of Public Education in the State of New York. He is the author of the recent report of the Regent's Inquiry entitled "Education for American Life."

Father George Johnson is director of the department of education, National Catholic Welfare Conference, and associate professor of education at Catholic University. He is a member of the American Youth Commission of the American Council on Education, and formerly served on the National Advisory Committee on Education appointed by President Hoover.

Dr. Charles H. Judd, at the time of his appointment, had served as head of the department of education of the University of Chicago for nearly 30 years. Throughout this period, Dr. Judd has also served on many important inquiries into educational policies, including the National Advisory Committee on Education appointed by President Hoover.

Mr. Thomas Kennedy is secretary-treasurer of the United Mine Workers of America and was formerly Lieutenant Governor of Pennsylvania.

Miss Katharine F. Lenroot is Chief of the Children's Bureau, United States Department of Labor.

Dr. Arthur B. Moehlman is professor of administration and supervision, School of Education, University of Michigan, and editor of "The Nation's Schools.' He has participated in numerous educational surveys and is author of several books on educational administration.

Dr. Henry C. Taylor is nationally known as an agricultural economist. He is now director of the Farm Foundation of Chicago and is active in the American Country Life Association. He was formerly director of the Bureau of Agricultural Economics in the United States Department of Agriculture.

Mr. T. J. Thomas is a railway executive of many years experience. He is now assistant to the president of the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad Co., and president of a subsidiary, the Valier Coal Co.

Mr. John H. Zink is president of the Heat & Power Corporation of Baltimore and also of Becker Bros. & Sons Co., of the same city. He has served as president of the Heating, Piping and Air Conditioning Contractors National Association and as general secretary of the Construction League of the United States.

Dr. George F. Zook, who has served as vice chairman of the Advisory Committee on Education is president of the American Council on Education. Formerly, he was president of the University of Akron and later was United States Commissioner of Education. He also served on the National Advisory Committee on Education appointed by President Hoover.

To summarize, of the 21 members of the Committee, 8 were from educational institutions or the educational profession, and 13 were laymen. Five of the 13 laymen held positions in the Federal Government, 3 were from the field of business, 3 from the field of organized labor, and two had other occupations. The Committee was thus made up largely of laymen and largely of persons not regularly in the service of the Federal Government.

The Committee was assisted in its work by a temporary staff of specialists in education, economics, and public administration, who prepared studies of various. aspects of Federal relations to education for the consideration of the Committee. The following is a list of the staff studies published by the Committee:

1. Education in the Forty-eight States. Payson Smith, Frank W. Wright, and associates.

2. Organization and Administration of Public Education. Walter D. Cocking and Charles H. Gilmore.

3. State Personnel Administration: With Special Reference to Departments of Education. Katherine A. Frederic.

5. Principles and Methods of Distributing Federal Aid for Education. Mort, Eugene S. Lawler, and associates.

6. The Extent of Equalization Secured through State School Funds. Edwards and Herman G. Richey.

7. Selected Legal Problems in Providing Federal Aid for Education. Hamilton.

8. Vocational Education. John Dale Russell and associates.

Paul R.

Newton

Robert R.

9. The Land-Grant Colleges. George A. Works and Barton Morgan. 10. Vocational Rehabilitation of the Physically Disabled. Lloyd E. Blauch. 11. Library Service. Carleton B. Joeckel. 12. Special Problems of Negro Education. 13. The National Youth Administration. Harvey.

Doxey A. Wilkerson.

Palmer O. Johnson and Oswald L.

14. Educational Activities of the Works Progress Administration. Campbell, Frederick H. Blair, and Oswald L. Harvey.

Doak S.

15. Public Education in the District of Columbia. Lloyd E. Blauch and J. Orin Powers.

16. Public Education in the Territories and Outlying Possessions. Lloyd E. Blauch.

17. Education of Children on Federal Reservations. Lloyd E. Blauch and William L. Iversen.

18. Educational Service for Indiana. Lloyd E. Blauch.

19. Research in the United States Office of Education. Charles H. Judd. 20. Equal Educational Opportunity for Youth. Newton Edwards. Published by the American Youth Commission. A revision of a preliminary staff study by Dr. Edwards for the Advisory Committee on Education.

These studies were prepared in preliminary form during the summer of 1937 and the findings were presented to the Committee in October of that year. Members of the Committee also met with representatives of many groups and received their views both through conferences and in the form of written statements. The Committee then proceeded with the drafting of its own report. After extensive discussion of the recommendations on the part of all members of the Committee, the report was adopted and transmitted to the President in February 1938. He immediately sent it on for the consideration of the Congress.

PRESENT APPLICABILITY OF THE REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE

Although no additional data have been collected and no additional studies made by the Advisory Committee since 1938, there is no reason to believe that the conditions and needs portrayed by the Committee have changed for the better to any appreciable degree. For this reason, the findings and recommendations