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that program the necessary related knowledge and also the necessary social understandings.

In other words, there are three categories that any school will ultimately have to cover; (1) teaching the skills of the particular job; (2) the related knowledge to those skills; and (3) the social understandings that human beings have to have to operate as good citizens.

So even with the set-up of regional schools or comprehensive high schools, there will very soon develop in those schools related subjects to the particular occupations or trades that are taught, and the social understandings which are necessary to those occupations.

In other words, you can hardly establish even a regional school of a trade and industrial nature without having accompanying fields of work that prepare the individual in terms of skill, without also giving them the subject matters relating to those particular skills and the social understandings that go with it.

By social understandings I mean how to get along with people. By related knowledge I mean the scientific knowledge necessary to the understanding of the skills. By the skills I mean the manual manipulations or the mental manipulations that have to be performed by the individual concerned.

Senator ELLENDER. It is not your view that the existing high schools throughout the Nation could not be developed to meet this need.

Mr. Hall. No, sir; I would say that the present high schools, if consolidated into large enough units with the necessary equipment and materials added to them, could become trade and industrial schools or comprehensive high schools giving the academic and the vocational training.

Senator ELLENDER. Don't you find that there have been too many high schools established in certain counties or communities?

Mr. Hall. There is no question that too many have been established.

Senator ELLENDER. I know that that is the case in many parishes in my State. We have some parishes in Louisiana with a population of, let us say, 65,000 people with as many as 17 high schools. Some have been consolidated in recent years, I am glad to state.

Mr. HALL. That is right. Undoubtedly there is evidence to show that our high schools have been built on slim foundations in many instances. That is because everybody wanted a high school close to them back in the earlier days. We now know that you cannot offer a varied program of studies sufficiently to meet the needs of the youths if we limit these schools to three or four teachers; you have to have large administrative units to justify the expenditures.

Senator ELLENDER. And have teachers who specialize in that particular trade?

Mr. HALL. That is right.

Senator ELLENDER. Don't you think that a program could easily be worked out through a system of consolidation?

Mr. HALL. There is no question but that that is under way and is the solution to it. There again, you have to educate your people to consent to the consolidations.

Having been a State superintendent for the past several years—for the last 12 years--I know some of the problems that are involved in that picture. But we must continue to hammer away at that problem.



Frankly, I would like to put it in the record here that I am thoroughly and bitterly opposed to several extraeducational institutions being established to perform the same function as our public schools. We already have the great institution of public education. We should take that institution as set up and build around it those offerings in education that are necessary to train our children for citizenship and making a living. There is no need of developing new institutions to meet that demand. It can be done more economically with the existing institutions through consolidations, through broader programs of study, through preparation of teachres to teach these particular skills, rather than by doing it in some other manner.

There is much more that I could say about that. But, appropos of the discussions that have taken place thus far, I feel that I should make one reference to this matter, and ask you to permit me to put this into the record, if you wish it, with reference to this bill having to meet the emergency needs in terms of defense.

Several times reference was made this morning to these defense areas. I have before me a summary of the situation in the State of Virginia. And I believe it would be a good idea to let you see it from the standpoint of a single State; and then you can multiply it in the terms of expense in the defense areas that are being developed.

Senator ELLENDER. Before you make that statement, I think Virginia has been one of the outstanding States in which there has been this so-called concentrated expansion.

Mr. Hall. That is why I wanted to read that into the record.

Senator ELLENDER. If that be true, then how can you take Virginia as an example?

Mr. Hall. You might take Virginia as one example. California as another; New York as another. The seaboard States are the places where the concentrations occur.

I have much sympathy with the idea that you have been presenting today about keeping these concentrations from occuring. And I want to show the committee what our situation is. It is one that is thoroughly impossible for Virginia as a State to cope with, without Federal assistance, either through defense funds immediately or through Senate bill 1313 as a general matter.

I am unable to say which is the better. From one angle the defense program would be better as an emergency matter; but I think part of this program is going to be with us through the years, and that it will not be ended in 2 or 3 years; therefore, we might as well prepare against the inevitable. That is my only reason for trying to bring this to your attention now. It will take but a minute.

This survey has been made of 12 counties and 9 cities in the State. Without reading you the details, I shall read you the totals.

We know that there are 11,533 elementary school children over and above those regularly enrolled in the schools in Virginia, in certain areas in these 12 counties and 9 cities.

There are 5,792 high-school children. That makes a total of about 17,000 additional children.

Our best estimates, made by our engineers and architects with reference to buildings, was that it will cost $153,000 to purchase the sites upon which buildings could be constructed; $332,090 to purchase the equipment; $4,372,600 to either build the new buildings or alter existing buildings, or make such additions as may be necessary.

We are still debating as to whether those should be temporary buildings or whether they should be permanent buildings. I cannot tell yet just what the answer will be.

Senator ELLENDER. Are you able to say whether or not these additional children come mostly from Virginia or from outside the State?

Mr. Hall. Thus far we know that at least two-thirds of this group come from Virginia.

Senator ELLENDER. How does that affect the places from whence they come? Doesn't it decrease the load there? Isn't the load being lessened?

Mr. Hall. Yes. I have found in the matter of State school funds, for example, that the matter just about balances itself, because there is a falling off in one county and an increase in another. Do

you follow what I mean? Senator ELLENDER. I understand. If that is a fact, then why should the whole burden be upon these localities where they are now located?

Mr. Hall. These localities have reached their ultimate tax limit; and there are limitations of that sort, which make it impossible to meet the demand.

Senator ELLENDER. Doesn't all of these defense projects add new wealth there and more employment; and there should therefore be more taxes collected?

Mr. Hall. You know as well as I do that in a movement of this sort the new taxes do not come in at the time you need them. They may come in ultimately. Most of this land and most of these Federal reservations are tax exempt; and you will find them a practical burden on the State.

For example, I have it in my notes to point out about 9 Federal reservations in Virginia from which the State or the localities get nothing whatsoever. Yet there are thousands of children either on those areas or close to them who have to be taken care of by the localities; and the localities get nothing out of it.

Take York County in Virginia. The Federal Government has bought two-thirds of that county and, therefore, it cannot be taxed any more.

I could name several other counties where practically all of our taxable values have been taken over by the Government.

At this very moment, Caroline County is about to be absorbed by the Federal Government. That whole school system will be ruined so far as collecting money with which to run its schools is concerned.

Senator ELLENDER. Isn't it a fact that the Federal Government has appropriated and is now building in quite a few places in Virginia at Government expense, school facilities for these boys and girls who live on these reservations?

Mr. Hall. I don't know of any.
Senator ELLENDER. You do not?
Mr. Hall. No, Senator.

Senator ELLENDER. Personally, I would treat the situation differently on a purely Government reservation. It strikes me that it is something that ought to be left entirely to the Federal Government.

Mr. HALL. But for years these Federal places like Dahlgren, Langley Field, Fortress Monroe, and so on, in our State have been

such that we have had to carry the whole burden. I believe you have been in the Senate long enough to know that consideration has been given to getting the Federal Government to help carry those Federal reservation projects.

Senator ELLENDER. I know that we provided funds in several bills for that purpose. Before the Senate Naval Affairs Committee some time ago we recommended several million dollars in order to put up Federal buildings in Virginia and in Georgia, as I recall.

Mr. Hall. I don't know of any schools that were constructed by the Federal Government except in the housing project at the national park. But that is just one project. The big problem has not been met at all. At least, if it has been met, I am not aware of it.

I was going to say that the figure for new buildings is $4,372,600, or for alterations or additions; for operation and maintenance $131,276; for the transportation of these children to the schools $187,720; for the salaries of teachers, $534,430; or a grand total of $5,714,116.

That is what we are confronted with. And we must have assistance either one way or the other. And as I listened to Mr. McNutt this morning, I did not see that there is any necessary conflict between the two pictures. But if there are conflicts they can be ironed out by the committee in dealing with the two bills.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you a naval reservation in your State?

Mr. Hall. Yes; the Quantico Station. And, of course, there is the navy yard in the Norfolk area.

The CHAIRMAN. Are schools being put on the naval reservation?

Mr. Hall. There is at Quantico. But that is on the ground of and is run by the Federal Government.

The CHAIRMAN. It is run by the Navy, is it?

Mr. Hall. Yes, sir. If I have misstated things from that angle, I wish to correct myself accordingly.

Senator ELLENDER. That is what I had in mind.
Mr. Hall. Then, I beg your pardon.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. Í think it is unnecessary for me to burden you with listening to any further remarks. But I have made three points. First, that this bill will help to clear up inequalities between the States and within the States; second, this bill will help us to wipe out inequalities in terms of education between the races; third, it will certainly give us an opportunity to expand our program of vocational education and at the same time not reduce our program of general education. And unless this thing is done, it means only two things, as I see it: First, with reference to inequalities between races, the money must either be taken from the white teachers and given to the Negro teachers—which the Negroes themselves do not want done, or the school program as a whole must be reduced considerably and new taxes added to meet the obligation.

I sincerely hope that something can be done by way of favorable action in this Congress.

Senator ELLENDER. Is the bill so drafted that the Board will have the authority to provide for proper ratio as between whites and Negroes?

Mr. Hall. If Senate bill 1313 is passed, with the present set-up of apportionment in it, I would say that that would be taken care of by the bill.

The CHAIRMAN. The reporter will see that the statistical matter referred to is put in at this point.

(The statement above referred to, "Summary of estimated school housing needs in connection with defense housing" is as follows:)

Summary of estimated school housing needs in connection with defense housing

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300 $35,000 $17, 500 $205, 000 $5,000 $16, 000 $19, 440 $297, 940 120 400 6, 800 122, 000 1, 900 13, 600 16, 000 160, 700 245 5, 000 26, 600 291, 000 6, 776

34, 480 363, 856 665 40, 400

50, 900

618, 000 13, 676 29, 600 69,920 822, 496 60

7, 740
30,000 2, 600

28, 800

69, 140 5,000 9,000 193, 000 8,000


20,000 20,000 40,000

257,000 490,000 11,000

40,000 601, 000 80 600 15, 000 160,000

13, 500 11,000 300

200, 100 21,000 29, 500 366.000 8,000 18, 900 50, 100 493, 500 60 5,000 3,000 48, 500 1,000 6,000 4,600 200

68, 100 25, 000 11, 500 250,000


44, 600 345, 100 620

43, 000

267,000 22,000 12, 000 56, 000 400,000 1,870 76, 600 158, 740 1,804, 500 66, 600 72, 400 255, 100 2. 433, 940 42

1, 650 35, 200 3, 200 4,020 6, 800 230

50, 870 12, 500 178,000 5,000

500 23, 000 219, 000 40

47, 900 800 5, 400 2, 700 110

56, 800 4,000 25, 000

8, 100

8, 300 45. 400 615 34, 000 45, 000 340,000 10,000

33 00 462 500

30, 300

379, 000 27,000 52, 500 60, 000 548, 800 1, 537

34, 000 93, 450 1,005, 100 46, 000 70, 520 134, 400 1, 383, 470 400 200, 000

39, 010 500

240, 510 14, 000 495, 000

15, 200 18, 000 543, 200 200 2,000 15,000 250, 000

18,000 290, 500 1, 100 2,000 29,000 945, 000 5, 000 15, 200 75, 010 1,074, 210 5, 172 153,000 332, 090 4, 372, 600 131, 276 187, 720 534, 430 5,714, 116

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The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Sutton?


SCHOOLS, ATLANTA, GA. Mr. CHAIRMAN. Will you state your name and address and any other information about yourself that you wish to put into the record?

Dr. SUTTON. My name is Willis A. Sutton. I am superintendent of schools, Atlanta, Ga.

Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I have written no formal statement, having been on a commission during the past 2 weeks, and I have not been home recently. I have some data that I would like to have included in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. We will receive your printed matter and it will be put in by the reporter at the proper place in the record.

Dr. SUTTON. It seems to me that in this bill you are taking the better course with reference to Federal aid than in any other bill that has been proposed. As I understand it, there are four phases where Federal aid would ensue if this bill were passed.

In those territories where we need the additional schoolhouses, teachers, and facilities on account of this defense program and those

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