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I am in education. Of course, we all believe in our own work. But I say this in terms of general national welfare because of the considerations which we have emphasized.

I will close with one final point that I would like to make about a feature of the bill.

Nothing has been said about the matter so far in the hearing: One feature in the bill is a highly commendable one. I refer to section 11, which provides that 1 percent of the money appropriated under this bill is available for research and administration.

I doubt if we can spend any proportion of this appropriation more effectively than in trying to be sure that the remaining $297,000,000 is spent well.

I want to emphasize the desirability and importance of the clause which suggests that we shall not just spend this money, but that we shall make the studies, that we shall conduct the research that should go along with this expenditure, so that we will know that it is being spent most effectively.

In the field of industry and in many other fields we have clearly recognized the importance of research, to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars spent each year. We have begun to recognize the importance of research in education, but not to the degree that we should. I want to emphasize the point that this bill is a good one for the reasons that have been stated already, but also that it is a good one because of the provisions of section 11.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Doctor. Dr. NORTON. If there are any other questions, Mr. Chairman, I will be glad to try to answer them.

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Zook?

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The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Zook, for the record, will you please state your name in full, and then your position and former position?

Dr. Zook. My name is George F. Zook. I am at the present time the president of the American Council on Education. I am coming here today, however, in an individual capacity and not as the representative of the American Council on Education.

That body, as perhaps you know, is made up of 89 organizations which belong to the council and something over 414 individual institutions, State school systems, and city school systems. With such a great diversity of organizations and institutions as belong to the council, I take it that it is not surprising that the council has not found it desirable itself to try to pronounce on major problems which came before Congress in the field of education.

I should like to emphasize, however, that all of its numerous committees and commissions have extended opportunity to do this kind of thing. One of its best known commissions, namely, the American Youth Commission, whose director I think you heard this morning, several years ago made a strong pronouncement in favor of Federal aid to education.

That Commission, as perhaps Dr. Reeves told you, is made up of a body of outstanding civic and educational leaders who, perhaps, at the time they began their study of this problem were divided in their opinion, but at the end they came unanimously to the conclusion that Federal aid to education was both necessary and inevitable.

I wish, first of all, as a result of my experience in the study of this problem, to offer simply a few words of testimony in favor of this bill. It so happens that I was connected with the United States Office of Education from the year 1920 to 1925, as a member of the staff, and in that connection had a great deal to do with the distribution of Federal aid to the colleges of agriculture and mechanic arts.

Later I was a member of the commission which President Hoover appointed, known as the National Advisory Committee on Education. This committee was one of the first and most important organizations to come to the conclusion that Federal aid to education is necessary.

Finally, I was a member of the more recent committee appointed by President Roosevelt to look into the necessity of Federal aid to education. I think you have probably already had an opportunity to hear from Dr. Reeves, who was the chairman and director of that committee, concerning the strong conclusions at which that committee arrived as a result of its 2 years of study, from 1936 to 1938.

As a matter of fact, this problem of Federal aid to education has been studied intensively by a number of important committees and commissions during the past 20 years; so that the information which has already been brought to your attention and which will be brought to your attention before you conclude your session, grows out of the careful expenditure of large sums of money, partly by the Federal Government and partly by privately controlled agencies. All of these committees, so far as I know, have uniformly arrived at the conclusion that something in the way of Federal aid to education is necessary

I speak of this in part because we now arrive at conclusions related to educational matters, as I am sure has been indicated in the testimony before you, as a result of a study of these problems. It was not very many years—and from that time clear back to the beginning of history—when what was done in education was a matter of opinion and belief. One man's opinion was likely to be regarded as being about as good as that of another. Sometimes those opinions and beliefs were dignified as educational philosophy. But, nevertheless, they were the opinions of individuals.

During the last 50 years in particular we have begun to develop very considerable research facilities in education. And, therefore, we come to our conclusions today not merely on the basis of mere opinion but upon the basis of extensive study of the situation.

Furthermore I would like to say that at the time the study of the problem of Federal aid to education was begun there was a great deal of difference of opinion among prominent educators. As a result of the tremendous amount of information and facts which have been produced by these studies over the period of the past 20 years there is today very little difference of opinion among educators as to the necessity and the desirability of something of this kind. I do not mean to say

that you cannot find a single educator who will disagree with it; but the number and the proportion of men and women whose business it is to be acquainted with problems of this kind and who are against Federal aid to education has declined appreciably, and it has declined as this overpowering information concerning the necessity of it has become better and better known.

Now, may I address myself for a few moments to some of the provisions of the present bill before you?

In the first place, it seems clear to me that the bill bas wisely provided that the money which is authorized under the bill, $30,000,000, will actually be expended for purposes for which it was intended.

That means something, for the simple reason that in the older days prior to the time when the Federal Government was taking adequate care concerning matters of that kind, it was always possible to use the Federal money, which was supposed to be devoted to education, in ways that were not as wise as they might have been. I am referring, for example, to the original legislation leading up to the establishment of the colleges of agriculture and mechanic arts.

This bill provides that each State shall submit plans for the expenditure of the money allocated to it, within those respective States. That seems to be a very wise provision of the bill, because, as has already probably been brought to your attention, there are not merely inequalities between and among States, but there are inequalities within the States, which it is hoped may be eliminated in considerable part by requiring the States to submit plans which show that they have that intention in mind at the time the money becomes available.

Secondly, the bill also wisely provides that there shall be adequate audits of the money that is being expended within the States. Our experience not merely with respect to educational bills but with respect to others now leads clearly to the conclusion that these audits are entirely satisfactory for the purposes of the Federal Government.

Finally, there are to be reports by the United States Commissioner of Education which are drawn from the several States and which can be made available publicly in order that public opinion may have the opportunity to play upon what is being done in the several States with respect to the money being expended therein.

So I conclude from this that the money which is contemplated to be appropriated under this bill will actually be expended for the purpose intended, without waste.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask you, Doctor, what were the difficulties in the beginning of the land grant colleges expenditures?

Dr. Zook. Simply the fact that the land which was given to the States was given to them without any kind of provision for checking on the manner in which the States disposed of the land the proceeds of which were used as an endowment for the colleges of agriculture and mechanic arts. In other words, the Federal Government simply turned over to the States the whole business without keeping any adequate check upon what was being done.

The CHAIRMAN. So there was no uniformity of expenditures in States or in neighboring States?

Dr. Zook. No, sir. But on the contrary in this bill the Federal Government is taking appropriate care to see that the money is really expended for the purposes intended. At the same time it seems to me that we can truly say that it is endeavoring to keep its hands off of the control of education.

When we use the term "control of education," obviously we have in mind that the Federal Government shall have nothing to do with the content of the courses of study that are offered in the schools in

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the several States; and that it shall have nothing to do with the selection of the people who teach in the schools or administer the schools.

This bill makes it crystal clear, it seems to me, that the Federal Government must keep its hands off of that kind of thing which we properly call Federal control of education.

Therefore, we have the interesting balance between the expenditure of the funds for the purposes intended under the control of the Federal Government on the one hand and the fact that the processes of education are not thereby controlled by the Federal Government.

I would like next to comment upon that provision in the bill wbich has to do with the allocation of the money on the part of the Federal Government to the various States. This bill provides that there shall be a board of five persons, not more than two of whom may be Federal officers, the other three obviously being civilians appointed from the country at large.

Those men and women are under obligation to take into consideration, first, the need of the several States on the one hand, and the ability of those same States, on the other hand, to do their job without the necessity of Federal aid.

The bill specifies exactly what is intended to be included under the heading of "Need,” on the one hand, and of the “Ability” of the States, on the other, to take care of their own educational situation.

In this way we believe that the Federal Government has made it possible to develop formulas for the purpose of taking care of this situation adequately and fairly among the States, without binding itself in law, as has sometimes been done in the past, to accept any particular formula permanently because it is written into the law.

I would like to say that from my point of view that is one of the wisest provisions that this bill contains, because it does give an opportunity for the studies that are constantly being made to be reflected in changes in that formual from time to time as wisdom dictates. So, as I say, I should like to commend that most favorably to your attention.

Another provision of the bill in which I am particularly interested has to do with the use of a portion, a very small portion, of this fund for the support of State departments of education.

I need not tell you gentlemen that certain aspects of the educational system have made great strides and are strong. There are certain other aspects of the educational system as one views it from ocean to ocean that are weak and have not been as well developed as the others.

One of the weakest links in our educational system under present circumstances is the rather low estate generally of the State departments of education. When it is remembered that it was the intention of the founders of our Government to locate the real control of education in the States rather than in the Federal Government, and in the localities, it becomes exceedingly important that the leadership in the States should really be strong instead of weak. If it is a fact, therefore, that the leadership as represented by the State departments of education there are some exceptions to this-is upon a rather weak basis, then it is one of the most unfortunate situations that we have.

This bill provides that a certain small proportion of the funds set aside here may be expended to build up these State departments of education. In fact, one can say with some confidence that unless we have strong and intelligent State departments of education one could not have any too much confidence that the plans which those respective States put up to the Federal Government would be wisely drawn.

Therefore, from the point of view of the Federal Government itself, let alone education in general, it seems extremely important that the State departments of education be strong and intelligent.

One of the ways in which this can be done is to provide a merit system for all the members of these State departments with the exception of the individual who is directly in charge of the State department of education.

I would like to draw a parallel here. I am sure that you are well acquainted with the fact that in practically every one of the States there is a strong bureau of public roads. Why do the States have strong bureaus of public roads? It is because the Federal Government, in dealing with the States so far as roads are concerned, felt that it was necessary that there should be strong bureaus of public roads in all the States in order that the cooperation between the Federal Government on the one hand, and the States on the other, might really be effective. In other words, in an entirely different field, one sees the necessity, not simply the desirability, of building up strong State situations which are in a position to cooperate effectively with the Federal Government.

Senator BUNKER. You are acquainted with the fact that the Federal Government dominates the policy of the States on roads?

Dr. Zook. It may do that to a considerable extent.

Senator BUNKER. You are convinced that that would not be the case in this instance?

Dr. Zook. I do not see any reason why it should be under the present bill.

Senator BUNKER. You feel that it should not be done? You feel that it should be prevented?

Dr. Zook. I certainly do. That is why I addressed some remarks to this point earlier in my statement.

There is another feature of this bill which interests me to a considerable extent, and that is the feature which has to do with schoolhouse construction,

During the time that I was United States Commissioner of Education, from 1933 to 1934, nothing came more strongly to my attention than the weak situation which existed throughout the country because of the very large number of unnecessary small rural schools. When I speak of this, I do not mean to say that one could eliminate all oneroom schools. It becomes very clear when one compares the situations between and among States—I had the opportunity, Senator, at one time to compare the situation between Utah, on the one hand, and of Idaho on the other. If I remember correctly, there are something like 50 school districts in the State of Utah, or there were at that time that I made the study in Utah, but a very much larger number of school districts in the State of Idaho, where, from my point of view, they had not been wise in making the same kind of concentration of school facilities that had occurred in the State of Utah. Yet those 2 States are very much alike so far as wealth and population are concerned, and everything else except the fact that one State had been very wise in concentrating school facilities and the other had not.

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