exercise its right to close up a dangerous mine, and a lot of them were closed. During that 3 months' period, to finish out that fiscal year, from March 1947, to June 30, 1947, you had 35 compliances, more than you had for the previous 9 months. Did the passage of that law by the Eightieth Congress cause you fellows to pay a little more attention to it? Mr. MOSGROVE. Mr. Congressman, I might say-I did not mean to bring it out in this-but the year 1946 was the worst record in the Big Sandy Field so far as fatal accidents were concerned, that is, for the last few years. Mr. BAILEY. Did you have any explanation as to why? Mr. MOSGROVE. None at all. I could not explain it. Mr. BAILEY. Did you relax your safety practices that were in effect during the war? I would rather think that during the actual war period, there would probably be less of it than there would be in the postwar period, because of the urgent need for coal and the employment of inexperienced mine workers during the war period. Mr. MOSGROVE. I know, Congressman Mr. BAILEY. There should have been a lessening of accidents after the war was over. Mr. MOSGROVE. I know, Congressman, that the human factor enters into a lot of things, and it is awfully hard at times to explain the human factor. I firmly believe that if we could overcome the human factor, we would go a long way in overcoming mine accidents. That is why we go for safety education. Mr. BAILEY. You are making the contention, then, that it is a major factor. I do not want to take the time, Mr. Chairman. Some of the other members might want to question the gentleman. That is all. Mr. KELLEY. Mr. Perkins? Mr. PERKINS. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Mosgrove, you will agree that we have a number of hazardous coal mines in Kentucky, will you not? Mr. MOSGROVE. No coal mine is absolutely safe. No coal mine is. Mr. PERKINS. I particularly refer to coal mines that are now unsafe to work in because of the fact that the proper safety standards have not been adhered to and observed by the employer. Mr. MOSGROVE. When I speak for eastern Kentucky, I think that I am speaking for one of the safest mining fields in the country, which is borne out by the fact, Mr. Congressman, although it may happen tomorrow, that we have not had an explosion in eastern Kentucky in the Big Sandy Field, I will say, in years. Mr. PERKINS. I will agree that I personally think you are putting on a good safety campaign, but you had an explosion in Paintsville, Ky., about 2 or 3 weeks ago, did you not, where 3 men were killed? Mr. MOSGROVE. Mr. Congressman, I think that that was brought out by the human factor. It was the use of blasting powder. Mr. PERKINS. Do you know about the Bureau of Mines making any report that that particular section of the mine was unsafe? Mr. MOSGROVE. I do not know anything about it, because that mine, Congressman, is not in the group of operators that I work for. Mr. PERKINS. I see. Mr. MOSGROVE. But I might mention that it was my place to go help with the work. The operators that I worked for are not at all selfish. We take our materials. We go to any mine, no matter how large or how small, and I personally helped to remove those men from the Mr. PERKINS. Did you go in and observe the roof of the mine? Mr. MOSGROVE. The job that I had to do at that time, Congressman, was to get those men out of the mine, because 2 of them were alive. Mr. PERKINS. And you did not make any examination at the time in order to discover whether or not the mine was what we may term a hazardous, unsafe mine, in that particular section? Mr. MOSGROVE. It was not my job to make an investigation of that mine, because I neither work for the State nor for the Bureau of Mines. I was there only to help remove those men from the coal mine to the outside. Mr. PERKINS. Now, when the Straight Creek Coal Co. had the explosion-I believe it was in 1945 or 1946-did you have anything to do with that field at that time? Mr. MOSGROVE. I had nothing to do at all with it, although working for a coal company, the Southeast Coal Co., in Letcher County, I helped to do the recovery work. Mr. PERKINS Do you know whether or not the Federal Bureau of Mines had made a report that that particular mine was unsafe before that explosion occurred, and that nothing was done about it by the owner of the mine or by the State mine inspector? Mr. MOSGROVE. I never read the report; so all I got was in the newspapers, afterward. It was not my place to read the reports. I did not see them. Mr. PERKINS. Now, of course, I personally believe that we need more safety and that we need more safety in Kentucky; and I believe that the Federal Bureau of Mines should have police powers to police unsafe mines wherein a danger exists. We have had testimony here that 85 percent of all accidents could be prevented if knowledge which we now possess was put into practice, and if this law is enacted, it seems that many of the worst explosions and accidents would be averted. We have had instances in the past where explosions have killed as many as 361 men, that is, by a single explosion. It seems to me from a humanitarian standpoint, we should pass this measure to advance the safety of the miners. And I cannot see where there will be any conflict with any State law. In fact, I believe it will bring about better cooperation. Now, as you know, in Kentucky we have many people who are engaged in hazardous occupations today who are not even carrying workmen's compensation. Do you know of any employers in that category? Mr. MOSGROVE. None of mine. That is not part of my job, to keep that information. I have no way of knowing which of my operators do, or which do not. Mr. PERKINS. When the explosion occurred there at the Straight Creek Coal Co., you know that the company was not carrying any workmen's compensation, and that the widows and the children of the men who were killed were thrown upon the charity of the communities for support. I am correct, am I not, in that statement? Mr. MOSGROVE. All I know is just what I read in the papers, Congressman. Mr. PERKINS. Yes. And I believe that in 1946, we passed a compulsory workmen's compensation act in Kentucky. That is a bill which originated in the senate in Kentucky, and it made it mandatory on the employers to operate under the workmen's compensation act, and in the event they failed to do so, provided a penalty. And during the same session of the general assembly, a bill that originated in the house at a later date was enacted into law which provided that an employer did not have to accept the provisions of the workmen's compensation act if he elected not to do so, but that he must file a financial responsibility statement with the commissioner of industrial relations that he would take care of any common law judgment that might be rendered against him in the event he elected not to operate under the Workmen's Compensation Act. Thereafter some fellow who was operating a saw-mill contended that he did not want to operate under the Workmen's Compensation Act but that he wanted to operate under the Financial Responsibility Act. He set out in his petition that he could not file his financial liability statement with the commissioner of industrial relations without violating the compulsory provisions of the Workmen's Compensation Act. The court of appeals in construing the two acts held that the latter act which was enacted repealed the compulsory provisions of the workmen's compensation law; that is, the compulsory statute that was enacted during the same session of the general assembly. We do not have a compulsory workmen's compensation statute in Kentucky. Prior to 1946, when such enactment had been made, the court of appeals held that it violated certain provisions of the Constitution, which I will not take time to discuss here, and therefore the employer could not be held to accept any such contract. But in the case that I just mentioned, the sawmill case, the court of appeals said that it was not necessary for them to discuss the constitutionality of the workmen's compulsory compensation statute, inasmuch as this later act which was enacted by this same session of the general assembly automatically repealed the prior compulsory workmen's compensation statute. With those circumstances existing in Kentucky, do you not think that we need more mine safety, and do you not think that you will get better cooperation if H. R. 3023 is enacted into law? Mr. MOSGROVE. Congressman, that is debatable. Any coal miner and his family deserve protection in the form of compensation and any other form of safety. That is what I am driving at. Whether or not this bill will attain that is debatable. God knows that I live with the coal miners. I was raised with them. I was one myself. I worked in the coal mine myself at the age of 15. You only have to live with men and you only have to make these investigations and make a study of the matter, as I have and others connected with safety, to determine what you think would be the right safety measures or what could be done. Gentlemen, when you see that most of your accidents are causedand I believe the Bureau will agree with me-by human failures, would it not be nice if the Bureau of Mines would just give us some more help from the educational standpoint? As I told you, we have Mr. PERKINS. Will the gentleman yield at that point? If they give you assistance from an educational standpoint, they have given you assistance in the furtherance of mine safety, have they not? Mr. MOSGROVE. That is right, sir. Mr. PERKINS. And, if they are clothed with more authority, they can give you more assistance in averting deaths that occur from hazardous mines; is that not the logical conclusion? Mr. MOSGROVE. It seems to me, Congressman, that at times you can overlegislate and undereducate. You know, you have traffic violations every day. They all know what to do, right in Washington here. Those fellows surely know the traffic regulations. Of course, that is beside the point. But, if there is one thing that will help to improve mine safety, that is my job. I am for it. Mr. PERKINS. Yes. Mr. MOSGROVE. I may be called bad names at times, gentlemen, but I will assure you that I am for mine safety. The coal operators pay me for that particular job. I do not know; I hope that I am doing a good job. I want to do it. Mr. PERKINS. You say, then, you agree with me and I agree with you, that we need more education to bring about better mine-safety regulations and laws. And if we have better education, at the same time and simultaneously therewith the people who are promoting that education should have the authority to put that education into practice in order to save lives. Do you not think that those factors go hand in hand? Mr. MOSGROVE. I still say, Congressman, that education will go further than legislation. I believe, and I am sure, that you cannot legislate safety. After all, there is the human factor. I will grant you that we need a certain amount of legislation; yes. We have a State Department. And if you will read your code, which you have, you will find that it and the Kentucky mining law do not agree on all points. The Kentucky mining law says that the mine must be inspected by the mine examiner or the fire boss 3 hours before the shift begins. The code says 4 hours. Well, you have those variations there that cause the men not to know what they are doing. Now, I would say that if any State needed Federal inspection to help it and wanted to ask for it, very good. Mr. PERKINS. It is necessary for us to legislate in order to bring about education. At the same time, how can you say it is not necessary for us to legislate to bring about better safety? Mr. MOSGROVE. We already have our mine-safety laws to govern that in Kentucky; it seems to me it would be like two traffic cops at one intersection trying to goven traffic with different yardsticks or different directions. Mr. PERKINS. I do not think there is any comparison there in any sense of the word; but, if there is any disagreement between the State Department and the Federal Bureau of Mines that the mine is unsafe and that lives are endangered unless that particular section in that particular mine is remedied, do you not think that the Federal inspec tor, if such a situation like that did present itself, should have the authority to tell the owners of the mine that they must remedy the situation, and they must stop working until it can be remedied. And if the operator disobeys the order and men lose their lives, which often happens down in Kentucky and which has happened even since this Public Law 49 has been enacted, and lives were lost, do you not think that, in order to save lives, the Federal mine inspector should have that authority when that situation exists? Mr. MOSGROVE. You mean, over the State men? Mr. PERKINS. Yes, if they want to disagree on as important a factor as that, certainly. At the same time, the State man has that right. Mr. MOSGROVE. Congressman, I gave you an instance a while ago where the Mr. PERKINS. Now, you just answer my question. I am just asking you if a double check is not better than a single check from a standpoint of preserving human lives, which we need to preserve, in a hazardous occupation. Mr. MOSGROVE. If at any time any legislation would save lives, Congressman, I am for it. Mr. PERKINS. That is all. Mr. MOSGROVE. But I am just wondering whether it would, in that case. Mr. PERKINS. That is all. Mr. KELLEY. Mr. McConnell? Mr. McCONNELL. Mr. Mosgrove, you are the safety director of an association of 36 coal-mining companies; so I imagine you have had a good deal of experience in the field. How long have you been in this particular position? Mr. MOSGROVE. I have been with the Big Sandy-Elkhorn Coal Operators' Association for 1 year. Mr. McCONNELL. I thought you had had several years' experience. Mr. MOSGROVE. I have had several years' experience in safety work. I have had approximately 6 or 8 years. Mr. McCONNELL. Do you have a record of the accidents occurring in these companies over a period of years? Do you have it available? Mr. MOSGROVE. Not available. But I do have them on file. I keep a statistical record each month of the entries, the frequency and the severity standings of the companies. Each month we keep a company standing to show this particular company how is stands with respect to safety as compared to other companies. Mr. McCONNELL. How many accidents have there been during the past, say, 10 years? Mr. MOSGROVE. Congressman, that would be hard for me to say, because I do not have those figures at my fingertips. Mr. McCONNELL. Do you have them for 5 years? Mr. MOSGROVE. No, sir; I do not have any figures with me. Mr. McCONNELL. Do you have any general grouping as to the types of accidents in those statistics that you say you have in your office? Mr. MOSGROVE. For the last year, I did try to classify the types of accidents. I did not know whether it would be worth anything or not. But for the year 1948 we had 17 fatalities to member companies of the Big Sandy-Elkhorn Coal Mining Institute. I will read those off to you: Rolled over a locomotive under low roof. Caught by fall of roof, 13. Crushed between radio box and roof-that is, of a locomotive. |