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Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; it requires mines to be rock-dusted where the dust is in suspension in such quantities that it is likely to create an explosive hazard, or where accumulations of such dust would accumulate.

Mr. KELLEY. Could not a condition like that arise rather suddenly? You inspect the mines how often, about every 3 months?

Mr. WILLIAMS. A mining inspector is supposed to visit the mines once each 3 months.

Mr. KELLEY. Once each 3 months?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. KELLEY. Between those inspections a condition could arise that would be an imminent danger where there might be an accumulation of rock or coal dust?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it could arise, provided you changed your system of mining.

This mine is mined over considerable territory. If these things that are being talked about were likely to happen, why, it goes without saying they would have happened between now and the more than 40-year period since 1901 when the mine was opened.

That this mine is to be classed as one of the most dangerous mines in this country, I take exception to. That mine in its normal operation and the conditions which surround it is one of the best mines in the State.

Mr. KELLEY. How can there be so much divergence of opinion here? Mr. WILLIAMS. That is a matter of how you arrive at your conclusion. If men have a certain policy to follow, everything is considered imminent danger. I can see that our Federal men stick to their side of that question, but we examined the mine and took and checked samples of the air and dust and we do not find those conditions.

Mr. KELLEY. And you say that the ventilating system there is perfectly satisfactory?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not say that it is satisfactory all through the day, but the ventilation extending down into the mine where the men work is above 20 percent, and has been for some time, and I am not condoning anything that in any way creates a hazard or that is likely to have people injured.

Mr. KELLEY. Let me ask you this question, since you are defending that mine. After these inspectors have said it is such a hazardous one, would you be willing to say that there could be no explosion in that mine?

Mr. WILLIAMS. There could not be under its present method of operation.

It was brought out here that there was so much explosive used in the mine. The very small quantity of explosives used to blast that coal is such that you are not likely at any time to have a blown-out shot. If you are going to set dust off in a coal mine from an explosive point of view, you have got to have volume of it enough to go out there somewhere to kick up that dust to start it off. I am not saying that you cannot go in there and create a condition, and that it cannot happen.

Under the Ohio mining law, we are compelled to make examinations where dust is thrown into suspension by the mining operations, and those mines are rock dusted. Before this law that was mentioned

here in the testimony, we did not know anything about it. After August 26 of this year any mine that is dry must be rock dusted.

Mr. KELLEY. This mine will be too, then?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Sure, it comes under that, and our determinations are different. At the present time I would be compelled to prove my case that the operation of that mine makes dust to make it an explosive hazard.

You can go into that mine and any mining operation where the mines are operated mechanically, and regardless of the fact that they put water on the cutter bars and they are rock dusted more and more, yet they have more dust than that mine has without doing anything at all about it, because you do not see that dust in suspension in that mine.

Mr. KELLEY. Suppose there is coal dust along the haulage road, would there be enough coal dust thrown up in suspension there to cause an explosion, especially where trolley rails or a spark might set it off? You told me the high ash content would prevent it. Is there the same ash content along the haulage road?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I know we took samples off the ribs, off the timbers, and off the floor, and we did not find a rock-dust content that would explode. If you had a longer line, extending for a mile or so, if that dust came off those cars, you could have an explosion. You could have an explosion in any mine regardless of the rock dust, but first you must have an explosion.

There is nothing in that mine that would lead me to believe that there is imminent danger as far as dust or gas is concerned. It is not unusual to find a small quantity of gas from the fact that bituminous coal is rapidly broken up. You can get a small reading of gas. Now, the highest content of gas found in that mine was found by a Federal mine inspector in a drill hole. If you bore a hole far enough in advance it could be full of gas. If you take a reading of that it might have a high percentage. If you bring that gas out of the hole and put it out in the atmosphere, under the law of diffusion it is. diffused to such an extent it is no longer explosive.

Mr. KELLEY. You should think from the testimony here about the poor ventilation that exists that you might have an accumulation of gas.

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is very well stated, and if such a condition exists, then when a man goes in with an open light and there has been no examination made, gas was never touched off?

Mr. KELLEY. God is looking after them.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No. Almighty God does not regulate gases in the mines; it has to be done by man.

Mr. KELLEY. If a man goes in with an open light and does not know if there is an accumulation of gas-an accumulation up to an explosive point-he pays with his life to find out.

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is true, and if he goes into this mine and there are the conditions that they claim exist, the gas does not accumulate. It goes to prove one thing-that it does not make the gas.

Mr. McCONNELL. Why are they buying a new ventilating fan if everything is O. K.?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Because the mine is getting deep, and they have to increase the ventilation as the mine gets deeper. You have to have more powerful machinery. You cannot ventilate a mine by natural

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ventilation; you have to have machinery. The ventilation in that mine is such that it maintains an oxygen content above 20 percent. That is in the chambers where the men work. You do not purify that air. All mines, except absolute stone, certainly will give off noxious and poisonous gases, and all other gases that go with mining, such as carbon dioxide. We do not find that condition there. Neither does the Federal mine inspector find it.

Mr. KELLEY. Regarding all these other substandard conditions that the Federal inspectors find here about that mine, I suppose the reason that you have not paid any attention to them is because the Ohio law does not cover them?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The Ohio law covers a good many things about mining, such as the guarding of electrical equipment. Now, they are allowed in Ohio to have 325 volts of d. c. electric current. The reason for that is that the current ordinarily goes down to 250 when you get back into the mine at great distances from your generator. Mr. KELLEY. How about operating open motors in gaseous mines? Mr. WILLIAMS. There is a great difference of opinion on that. Speaking as a coal miner-though I have due respect for the gentlemen who have been schooled possibly to such thought-if that is all the security a man has, a closed motor, and you are in an explosive mixture, before that day is over you are going to have an explosion. The only security that you have with a closed motor is that when you turn the motor on, that electric spark is not going to touch off the gas when it is there, but you would not be able to conduct a mining operation in an explosive mixture because it is going to get knocked off, if by nothing else, by the friction, and the very fact that you are mining and working there.

Mr. KELLEY. Of course, if that is a hazard itself, it will reduce it. Mr. WILLIAMS. If the mine was a gaseous mine, the Ohio law would require closed motors.

Mr.KELLEY. Does not the Ohio law require a preshift inspection? Mr. WILLIAMS. In gaseous mines.

Mr. KELLEY. Is this mine gassy?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, it is not.

Mr. KELLEY. Your standard in determining whether a mine is gaseous or not is what percentage?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Five-tenths of 1 percent. That has to be found in the air current.

Mr. KELLEY. How many tons of coal do you mine in Ohio per fatality?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I cannot justly answer that, but I will say it is higher than the average of the United States, considerably.

Mr. KELLEY. Higher than the average?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, more tons per fatality.

Mr. KELLEY. Do you not think that is a good reason to follow up these recommendations?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That may be a good reason to follow up the recommendations. The Ohio Division of Mines is making an attempt to have the mines safe. We consider that our mines are not hazardous. There is no point gained by going back over past history and bringing it up to the present moment and to say that is what is going on in the mines of this country.

Mr. KELLEY. Do you attempt as a general thing to cooperate with the Federal inspectors?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, we certainly do. When the Federal mine inspector goes into a mine, he makes first a preliminary report. That preliminary report is received by me in my office. That preliminary report is sent back to the district mine inspector with a letter telling him to inquire into this and if the State law is violated to take the necessary steps to have it remedied. That is the policy of the Ohio Division of Mines.

Mr. BAILEY. Right at that point, I would like to continue the thought that you just expressed. To what extent do you follow up through your district man here-speaking now of this particular mine does he call on this policy committee and discuss with them the violations?

Mr. CONEYBEER. Yes.

Mr. BAILEY. You have actually met this policy committee?

Mr. CONEYBEER. Did you take into consideration the Federal report at the time?

Mr. CONEYBEER. Yes, where there was a violation of the law. Mr. BAILEY. How much variation was there in your findings from those of the Federal Bureau?

Mr. CONEYBEER. Of course, the dust hazard at that mine, in my opinion, is not what the Federal Bureau of Mines' men think it is or say it is.

Mr. BAILEY. Did some other inspector make the inspection or did you make the actual inspections?

Mr. CONEYBEER. I made the inspections myself. I started making an inspection of the mine on the 28th of June. They have only worked 3 days since the 28th day of June. I have not completed the inspection.

I might state here that one of the inspectors made the statement they were blasting coal and rock with dynamite. Well, of course, I never knew they ever shot anything but sump holes in the bottom to gather water.

Mr. BAILEY. I understand what you mean.

Mr. CONEYBEER. When I went to the mine I saw on the Federal inspector's report that that was being done, and I asked why that had happened. They said that the water was running out of the holes and they could not get the slate shot with anything else; the powder would get wet. When they drilled the hole the water ran out of the hole and, of course, this was all past when I got there, but I was inquiring as to why they used it. They said that that was why they had done it, because of the fact that the water was running out of the holes. It is pretty hard to shoot powder in water where you can shoot dynamite that way.

Mr. BAILEY. To what extent has Mr. Holt, as chief partner, or president, cooperated in making the mine safe?"

Mr. CONEYBEER. Just as Mr. Holt said, that mine is 45 years old, and it is a long haulage road, and it is a low mine, and there is a lot of spillage of coal in a hand-loading mine. If you have been around a mine you know how a loader will load his car. They have some ups and downs, and naturally the cars do not run together. They have a stiff hitching; they do not have a solid bumper, and there is spillage.

You can clean it today and go back tomorrow and tell them to clean it again tomorrow.

I will say in all the places where there would be an accumulation, in those places where the cars run together and the coal spills off, they keep that as well cleaned as is humanly possible to keep it.

Mr. BAILEY. What about this slate roof?

Mr. CONEYBEER. I wish that I had 100 mines like it in the roof. It is the grandest roof that you ever saw in your life. I have traveled for 11 years, and I never saw a mine injury

Mr. KELLEY. How wide do they make their entries, the main haulage?

Mr. CONEYBEER. Twelve feet.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I would like to add this, speaking of clearance. The Federal code calls for 24 inches. The Ohio mine law is 14 inches. We have no power to enforce the Federal code.

Mr. KELLEY. I realize that. I appreciate the fact there are many of these violations here of the Federal code that you could not enforce by law in Ohio because your Ohio law does not permit it.

Mr. WILLIAMS. We would certainly get out on a limb. The coal operators would say, "By what authority are you ordering such stuff done?" They would ask, "Where do you get your authority?" Mr. KELLEY. There is no question about that.

Mr. WILLIAMS. They certainly scrutinize our authority.

Speaking of it personally, I have never seen a mine in my lifetime that you could not find some place where you could make some improvement, because a mine is a progressive thing; it is moving. Mr. KELLEY. There is no safe mine.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No.

Mr. BAILEY. In some previous statement a witness testified that the General Assembly of Ohio was revising the mine laws. Is that true? Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right. I can give you a copy of that law. Mr. BAILEY. Have they completed it?

• Mr. WILLIAMS. The law is complete. It becomes effective

Mr. BAILEY. I understand that that new law will require rock dusting.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Absolutely.

Mr. BAILEY. After August of this year?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.

Mr. BAILEY. That will affect this mine and every other mine.

Mr. WILLIAMS. It will affect every mine when it is dry. It has to be absolutely wet if they do not rock dust. That law was written by the miners and the operators.

Mr. BAILEY. O. K. Now, the Salineville mine is not absolutely dry.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No.

Mr. BAILEY. It will be subject to rock dusting after all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Pardon me, but do you not mean it is not absolutely wet?

Mr. BAILEY. I mean that; yes.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, all dry places must be rock dusted. That coincides much with my opinion, that our laws should have stated emphatically that you should apply things without having to go through a lot of analysis which changes from day to day, and where dangers could crop up.

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