Senator STONE. What connection has your company with plate glass?

Mr. GOERTNER. Our interest in plate glass is primarily as manufacturers of mirrors. Probably, I should say, fully 90 per cent of the plate glass we import is used in our manufacturing departments. We, of course, sell some, but it is a relatively small amount.

Senator STONE. Do you know approximately, speaking offhand, the volume of plate-glass importations, say, for 1912?

Mr. GOERTNER. Yes, sir.

Senator STONE. About what per cent of that volume did your company import?

Mr. GOERTNER. From 25 to 30 per cent, I should say.

Senator STONE. Your company is the largest importer, is it not, of plate glass in this country?

Mr. GOERTNER. With one possible exception, I think we are.
Senator STONE. With one exception.

Mr. GOERTNER. I think we are. We may possibly be. I do not know the exact figures for the other concerns.

Senator STONE. What is that concern?

Mr. GOERTNER. Schrenk & Co., Hoboken, N. J. It varies. I know that a year or two ago they were importing more than we were, but whether that condition has existed this year I can not say.

Senator STONE. You handed me a brief

Mr. GOERTNER. That is the window glass you have there.

Senator STONE. I am just suggesting this in order to make a start. This is the brief you filed with the Ways and Means Committee in January?

Mr. GOERTNER. Yes, sir. It was reprinted just as it appears in the tariff hearings to be in more convenient form.

Senator STONE. But this that I hold is a separate pamphlet. On page 6 of this pamphlet I find a table headed “Comparison of the American productions and importations."

Mr. GOERTNER. Yes, sir.

Senator STONE. There is a great reduction in the United States in one column in imports. The table covers production and imports?

Mr. GOERTNER. Yes, sir.

Senator STONE. Running from 1880 to 1912, the latter being approximate. I find from this table, according to your view, that the plate-glass production in the United States increased from 1880, being then 1,042,000 square feet, with constant growth in production to approximately 60,000,000 in 1912.

Mr. GOERTNER. Yes, sir.

Senator STONE. Now, on that one proposition, what do you think? Mr. EASTWOOD. I think it is a fairly close estimate of the production in 1912, although we have no way to verify it absolutely. We have no way to find out what the production of the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. is. Of course the independent people have told pretty well what their production is. I think that is pretty close, though, to the amount of glass. It would not vary very much. Senator STONE. You think that is approximate?

Mr. EASTWOOD. I think that is pretty close to it, from all the knowledge I have of it.

Senator STONE. Now, the imports of plate glass in 1880 were 1,906,617 feet, being larger than the domestic production of that year, varying from year to year, increasing and decreasing, until 1912, when, according to your statement, it was 1,200.000 square feet. Senator SHIVELY. There must be some mistake there.

Mr. WOLF. The importations did fall off very greatly last year in plate glass.

Senator STONE. Mr. Wickes, are you prepared to say that that is approximately correct?

Mr. WICKES. No, sir; I could not say as to that.

Mr. EASTWOOD. We have it there in our brief.

Mr. WICKES. No; not for 1912.

Mr. GOERTNER. If I may interrupt, on page 82 of the Tariff Handbook there appears the total of plate glass, cast, polished, finished, or unfinished and unsilvered. That is the paragraph.

Senator SHIVELY. Is that the paragraph? That does not correspond with these figures.

Mr. GOERTNER. That 1.200.000 feet that I included in this statement was before the Government figures were out for 1912. They are given in the Tariff Handbook precisely, and they amounted to a little less than what I have said-1,110,000 square feet.

Senator STONE. That handbook shows that to be the total importations for 1912?

Mr. GOERTNER. The total of 1912.

Senator STONE. Do you know whether those data were prepared, or that the statement was prepared from official figures?

Mr. GOERTNER. I can not say of my own knowledge.
Senator STONE. Were the official figures extant, then?

Mr. GOERTNER. At the time I made this? No; they were not.
Senator STONE. Or when this handbook was made?

Mr. GOERTNER. Yes, sir: they were when this handbook was made up-at least, I will ask Mr. Wolf with respect to that. The handbook was made up about two months ago. At that time they should have had complete records for 1912.

Senator STONE. There is a matter that I would like to ask Mr. Wolf-whether you can state, without reference to official data, whether that is approximately correct?

Mr. WOLF. I can only state that during the last year the importations of plate glass fell off considerably over the years previous to that. There was considerable falling off in 1912 from 1911, and I, of course, tried to investigate why that was, in my capacity as examiner, and I understood it was the result of a considerable cut in price on the domestic article. Mr. Wickes can confirm that. Mr. WICKES. Yes; glass has been very low this last year.

Senator STONE. You are just anticipating the question I was going to ask you

Mr. WICKES. I did not mean to, Senator.

Senator STONE. But you have, and it is all right. The question I was going to ask was if you could give a reason for the very great decrease of more than one-half of the importations.

Mr. WICKES. It is based on the increase of production of American factories and the low prices they have been getting for their glass. We have been selling our glass at a loss. A great deal has been sold at a loss in the United States. We do not make any money on a cer

tain size glass, and never have in my experience in business. Small glass we always lose money on. The money we make is on the large glass. When we sell a piece of glass about that size [indicating] we do not make any money on it. It costs us just as much as it does to make a large piece of glass, in the process of making it. I might tell you briefly how it is made, if you care to listen to it-how glass is made. It is very simple.

Senator STONE. I have no objection

Mr. WICKES. That is, if you feel interested in it. Senator STONE. I am interested, only I think I know. Mr. WICKES. I am very glad to know that you know. been in a factory, Senator?

Have you

Senator STONE. Yes. Have you ever been in a factory, Senator Shively?

Senator SHIVELY. Yes.

Mr. WICKES. That is as near as I can get at it as to the reason. The glass business has been a very peculiar business with reference to competition among the manufacturers themselves. The Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. is a very strong organization, and they sell their glass to their own jobbers, and all the other independent companies sell their glass to the independent jobbers, as they are called, and the competition is very keen. At times it has been very close. Glass has been sold, as I have said, on and off for the 13 years that I have been in it for considerably less than it should have been sold for to bring a fair return to the man who has his money in the business. It has not been, as far as the independent companies are concerned. As far as the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. is concerned, I can not say. They have an advantage over us because they job their own glass. But, as far as the other independent companies are concerned, it has not been what you could class as a profitable business; that is, the kind of business from which a man would get the proper return for the money he has invested in the factory.

Senator STONE. You say the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. job their own glass?

Mr. WICKES. They have their own jobbing houses.

Senator STONE. By that you mean that they distribute it?
Mr. WICKES. Yes, sir.

Senator STONE. They sell it to the retailers?

Mr. WICKES. Yes, sir; and sell it to the consumers.
Senator STONE. And to consumers direct?

Mr. WICKES. Yes, sir.

Senator STONE. How do you dispose of yours?

Mr. WICKES. We sell ours to jobbing houses in the cities that buy glass, the manufacturers of mirrors and show cases, and people of that kind. We do not sell any to the consumers at all, and our glass all has to go to a man who has to make another profit on it. That has enabled the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. to make more money on their glass, of course, than the other factories have.

Senator SHIVELY. That is, to save more money.

Mr. WICKES. Yes, sir; to save more money. You may put it either

way.

Senator SHIVELY. You spoke of the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. selling to its own jobbers?

Mr. WICKES. Yes, sir.

Senator SHIVELY. That is, it has its own agents and sells its output to those agents, and they in turn do business with the retailer or consumer?

Mr. WICKES. They own those houses; they own their own stores. In other words, they take this glass and store it and distribute it. They own and operate them. It is just the same as their operating their factory. Consequently, they get that profit.

Senator SHIVELY. Are they real jobbers, in the usual sense of the term?

Mr. WICKES. I should say they were. They distribute their own product, and distribute it in competition with the jobber that we sell to.

Senator SHIVELY. There the producing company and jobber are all the same institution, a part of the same general organization, are they not?

Mr. WICKES. You mean the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co.?

Senator SHIVELY. Yes.

Mr. WICKES. I do not know how they treat those houses. They are owned by the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co., and they operate them, I know. Maybe Mr. Goertner can answer that. I do not know how they operate their business, but I know they own those houses and run them as their own houses, and they conduct their books. not know how it is done, but it brings a revenue to them that we do not get that the other people. in the glass business do not receive, you understand.

I do

Senator SHIVELY. That is, the middleman can protect his stuff. Mr. WICKES. Yes, sir. Competition has been very keen. I only say that because there has been an intimation made that this combination of houses and the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. were all connected in some way, and I want, if you gentlemen will believe me, to tell you that that is not true; that there is no such agreement. The Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. has been the strongest competitor that we have had in the business-every man in the business.

Senator STONE. Was there not at one time some combination? Mr. WICKES. We have never had any combination with the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co.

Senator STONE. Was there not a suit brought by the Government? Mr. WICKES. I never knew of any in my time.

Mr. EASTWOOD. That was the Imperial Glass Co. They handled window glass.

Mr. WICKES. I never knew of that suit. I never heard of it. Senator STONE. About what per cent of the 60,000,000 square feet of glass manufactured last year was made by the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co.?

Mr. WICKES. I think about half of it, would you not say.

Mr. EASTWOOD. I would say that the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. made 28,000.000 and the independents possibly 32,000,000. Mr. WICKES. Forty-seven per cent. That is pretty close.

Mr. EASTWOOD. The Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. made, I should say, approximately, 28,000,000.

Senator STONE. Out of a total of 60?

Mr. EASTWOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. WICKES. And the other companies made the rest, Senator. One company has shut down, the company at Alexandria, Ind.-the

Penn-American Co. They can not operate their plant at the prices they have.

Senator STONE. Do you know what plate-glass manufacturing establishments are connected with what is known as the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. ?

Mr. WICKES. What plants they have-where the different plants are?

Senator STONE. Yes.

Mr. WICKES. No; I could not give you any information as to that. Mr. EASTWOOD. I believe I can answer that. The plants in the Pittsburgh district are Charleroi, Tarantum, and Creighton. Senator STONE. Those are surrounding Pittsburgh?

Mr. EASTWOOD. Yes, sir. Then they have a plant at Kokomo, Ind., and one at Crystal City, Mo.

Mr. WICKES. And Ford City, Pa.

Senator SHIVELY. That is in the Pittsburgh district really?
Mr. EASTWOOD. Yes, sir.

Senator STONE. Is that the plant you spoke to me about?
Mr. EASTWOOD. Yes, sir; that is the plant.

Senator STONE. Is that a part of the Pittsburgh company?

Mr. EASTWOOD. Yes, sir; Ford now has a plant of his own in Toledo, but he built originally, with his father, old Capt. Ford, the Ford city plant, and they went into the competition at the time that combination was made, and then Mr. Ford withdrew and afterwards built this plant of his own in Toledo, and he has the largest factory now outside of Pittsburgh-that is, the largest single man.

Senator STONE. I understood that Ford was conducting an entirely different and independent establishment-I mean independent of Pittsburgh.

Mr. WICKES. Yes, sir; he has no connection with them at all. Senator SHIVELY. That old plant is situated in the Allegheny Vallev above Pittsburgh?

Mr. EASTWOOD. Yes, sir.

Senator STONE. And what is now known as the Ford factory is on the lake?

Mr. WOLF. It is on the Maumee River at Toledo.

Mr. WICKES. It is not on the lake, but very near to it.

Mr. EASTWOOD. It is probably 10 miles inland from the Maumee River; it is just outside of Toledo.

Senator STONE. How many men have you employed in your establishment?

Mr. WICKES. We employ about 400.

Senator STONE. How are they employed?

Mr. WICKES. How do you mean, Senator?

Senator STONE. I mean in classifying them; how many are in the inside work-managing the machinery and making the glass, from the men who tramp the material to the final packing of the glass and loading it-how many are inside under cover?

Mr. WICKES. They are nearly all inside. We do not have much outside labor. There is some, of course, handling material around the plant, but pretty much all of it is inside labor. That is, we unload our sand with crane that is operated by a few men, and load the coal on that, and that is about all the labor there is outside of the plant. The principal work is done in the plant.