pay out a great deal more for first-class postage than for second-class. Of course our bills are sent out under first-class. The checks come back by first-class, and a hundred and one questions come back by first-class. We write asking a thousand and one questions by firstclass. We want all the time to make our papers up to date and I tell you you have got to make a paper up to date or it will die. You could not run a paper as you did twenty-five years ago. Trade papers used to be wretched small affairs and looked upon as house organs are now, merely as advertising mediums. To-day they are great educators. No paper can hold a circulation nor an advertising unless in its reading pages it shows reasons for its existence.

As indicated at the start, it is unjust to charge up to the publishers the fact of the cheap rate made for periodicals or newspapers. These rates are made, and wisely so, for the benefit of the people and the encouraging them to take and read the papers as a means of necessary education. At first the subscriber paid the postage. I can remember when my father was charged 20 cents a year as postage on a weekly paper that he took. Then it was paid as a separate charge to the publisher, who in reality, as a convenience and security to the Government, advanced the postage for the subscriber. Then at a further reduction the publisher stood the charge himself. The wonderful increase in the number of readers of the papers under the present system shows the wisdom of the Government in making the change to the reduced rates on second-class matter, "to contrive that these papers should penetrate to the whole mass of the people." If postage is put back to the old standard on what is now termed second-class matter, or a material increase in rates is made, the publishers will be compelled to charge the postage to subscribers and there will doubtless be a decrease in the number of subscribers, also in the advertising patronage and in the receipts of the Government on both first and second-class matter.

It is unjust to class second-class mail matter with first-class when speaking of the cost of the service. Second-class mail is more in the nature of express matter. It is delivered by publishers at the postoffice in large sacks, much lighter than the letter-mail pouches, labeled to the post-offices and States where it is to go. It requires neither the care nor the speed of first-class matter, nor does it receive the same.

This has been pretty well brought out. We all know that the publisher goes to the post-office, gets the bag, takes them to his own office, fills them, and routes them by States. Every publisher is required to do that. Then he delivers them to the post-office. There is no gathering of them by the postal employees. Then the sacks are sent out without opening and go to their destinations.

In the handling of first-class matter the letters are collected by carriers, taken to the post-office, where they are canceled. The stamps. have to be sold. They must have people to sell these stamps and people to cancel these stamps, and you put on the date of your receipt. There is another man to put on the stamp of the receiving office. Besides that, first-class mail goes into leather sacks that weigh five times as much as the sacks in which the other mails go.

Besides the greater care and speed required there are near half a score of things to be done with regard to letters in the way of collecting, separate handling, weighing, stamp cancellation, stamping with

dates of receipt at mailing office and at the office of destination, the sorting in pouches, locking, etc., besides the extra expense at every step. It would be just as sensible for an express company to say, because they figure up and find that packages bring in so much and that rough freights bring in a certain amount, and the rough freights weigh five times as much as the packages-it would be just as sensible to say, " Why, this rough freight is not paying its part. These packages pay on half a pound as much as these rough freights pay on 500 pounds: let us put up the freight charges and reduce the packThis ought to be taken into account; the fact that the secondclass matter is carried in bulk, and without any care and without any great danger of loss.

ages.

There is a difference in quality and in value. It is nonsensical to compare the two in any way at all, because one is precious matter and the other is mere rough freight. Of course, a periodical may once in a while be lost, but the Government is not bothered about it. letter is lost there is trouble; it must be hunted up.

If a

It has been stated here that periodicals are carried as expeditiously as first-class matter. I know I do not get them on the same day that I get the letter mailed at the same time. There is no necessity for the same rush, at least.

It is unfair and hurtful to hamper newspapers or periodicals with technical rules subject to constant change as to the manner of conducting business, as to form, size, make-up, or uniformity of the sizes of pages. No officer of the Government or Postal Department should have the right of censorship or espionage over private business, and a legitimate publication, accorded what is known as the secondclass mail privilege, should not be refused the same without due process of law; nor should any officer of the Post-Office Department have the right, on information or on his own motion, to issue fraud orders. without proper citation of the party concerned and full hearing, subject to appeal. It is easy for a rival in business, an interested, selfish, malicious, or unprincipled man, to reach the ear of an officer with complaints that, acted upon, will result in hardships or loss to a competitor and an expense to the Government.

The handling and delivery of mails is a simple carrying or transportation business, undertaken by the Government; and the Postal Department has no other or different relation to the customers of the mail service than has an express company to its customers. In every case the publishers, like everybody else, should be held responsible for violations of law or good morals, and should not be allowed to be the agents or instruments of frauds or swindlers; but there should not be different laws or regulations for publishers than for others. The Postal Department has no different relations to the publisher and his subscribers or patrons, so far as the receiving, carrying, and delivering legitimate publications is concerned, than have express companies to the merchants whose goods they carry and their cus

tomers.

I am covering this matter of the inquisition into trade papers. We have been required to see to it that every page in our paper is trimmed exactly the same length; that no advertiser said "This paper is of my manufacture," and all that kind of thing. My idea is that, as

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Mr. Martin suggested, it is a good idea to fix the minimum size of a paper or periodical and then fix a rate, and not keep a horde of people to be detectives.

I do not think there has been any wrong done or intended, but if you establish the idea of censorship of the mails, under bad officers it is liable to be abused and lead to tyranny. I think there should be a general law that would cover all these matters. The Post-Office Department was never intended to be endowed with the legislative, executive, or judicial functions or powers of the Government. It has never been made the guardian of publishers or newspaper subscribers or patrons. Legitimate publishers conduct their business to make a living, and on an average they receive less remuneration and render greater services to the Government and all the Departments and officials thereof and to the citizens, both in their individual and collective capacities, than do the members of any other ealling. They have a right to conduct their business in security, without vexations restrictions. The censorship of or any espionage over or upon the press is illegal and wholly in violation of the genius of our free institutions and of the foundation principles of our Government. The publisher had a right to use all lawful and legitimate agencies and methods for the advancement of his business. It is no crime for a legitimate publisher to push the circulation of his publication and thereby diffuse knowledge and valuable information necessary to good citizenship and to useful, successful lives. It is a work in which the Government has largely and properly aided by giving to the people low rates of postage on their newspapers and periodicals.

There is no danger of there being too many papers or of those at present existing being too widely circulated. If a publication is not wanted by the people or enough copies of it to bring profit or living to the publisher, it will die. The Post-Office Department does not need to go to the trouble of undertaking the hastening of its death. All that is necessary is to define what is a legitimate publication and fix the rates of postage. Business sense and business interests will do all the rest.

With regard to this talk about how much advertising a man puts in: The advertisements are sometimes more informing than reading matter. They contain good information. But, I say, with regard to the advertising, that business will govern that. If a man neglects his readers, he will lose his subscribers. If he loses his subscribers, he loses his advertising. There is no trouble about that. There may be some issue of that paper that has an extraordinary amount of advertising, but the next issue may have an extraordinary amount of reading matter. The publisher has got to satisfy his readers in order to hold them, and he has got to hold his readers in order to hold his advertisers. That is something that the Government does not need to bother about. The proportion of advertising and reading matter will regulate itself. That is well understood, and it requires no elaboration.

Then all that remains is the definition of what is a legitimate publication, entitled to be carried as such in the United States mails.

I have already referred to the fact that it ought to be of a size to be of service to subscribers and to the public. It should be understood that a paper should be in a condition to do public service, and that there should be a limit on that.

The following proposed amendment to the postal laws, as agreed to by a conference of the agricultural and live-stock editors of the United States, seems to fully cover this ground as an amendment to section 14, chapter 180, act of Congress, March 3, 1879:

Fourth. It must be originated and published for the dissemination of information of a public character or devoted to literature, the sciences, arts, or some special industry, and having a legitimate list of subscribers. Subscriptions shall be deemed legitimate in all cases wherein the recipient of the publication or another than the recipient pays or agrees to pay for such publication for a definite period: Provided, however, That nothing hercin contained shall be construed to admit to the second-class list regular publications designed primarily for advertising purposes or for free circulation, or for circulation at nominal rates.

You may object to that basis" for a definite period." The idea has got about that advertisers pay for papers. I have been in the publishing business for thirty-three years and I have not found that advertisers were subscribers to my paper for a definite length of time. An advertiser may buy some extra copies of one issue. But as a rule he does not subscribe. Here is a clause saying that somebody should subscribe, either for himself or somebody for him. We all know that in the case of our old home papers people subscribe for their papers and send them out to their friends in the West. All over the country papers are subscribed for and paid for by the people who have remained at home. The boys who have gone out West received the papers. Would you deprive them of that privilege?

I say the advertisers are not subscribing permanently for papers. Of course this should be in good faith-there should be no sham about it. If a man is caught violating the spirit of the law, there should be a penalty provided.

The idea has been brought out here with regard to the quantity of advertising. I do not believe that the quantity of advertising in a paper has anything to do with the idea of its being published for advertising purposes. We know that there are certain men dealing in certain lines of goods. They get out a house organ and send it out to their prospective patrons.

Here is a man who gets out a paper and sends it out with no advertising at all in it, but his firm name is published, his place of business and his character of business are indicated at the head of the publication. In the publication he puts all the men whom he wants to reach. His traveling men see them and get their pictures. There is not a word of advertising in it, and some of these papers are going through the mail as second-class matter; and yet the whole object, as I am told, is to secure business. Now, that is the idea, to meet the purpose of the publication. Not because a man has been fortunate enough in getting up a good paper and a good circulation and securing advertisers who are good buyers, a good class of people. If a man's paper is a common carrier, he would be fined for refusing an advertisement of a legitimate kind in his paper. He can not refuse it, not even if he had four-fifths of it in advertising. He can enlarge his paper of

course.

In conclusion, then, it appears that present rates of postage on what is called second-class matter have been wisely fixed by Congress for the benefit of the people and of the Government, and not at all in consideration of or for the benefit of the publisher; that the wise end of securing a thorough circulation of the papers throughout the

whole mass of the citizens and the diffusion of knowledge and the informing of the people of all the proclamations, doings, and plans of the different Departments and Government officials have been secured at a nominal cost; that the papers have proved efficient and profitable promoters of the postal business, adding millions of dollars annually to receipts for first-class mail matter, and that the present rates are just, profitable, and serviceable to the Government. Neither can there be any distinction justly made between daily and weekly newspapers or periodicals, weeklies, monthlies, or quarterlies, or religious, educational, trade, industrial, technical, scientific, commercial. or agricultural publications. These have all alike promoted, directly and through advertising, the postal business along its profitable lines of first-class mail matter or letter postage tenfold more than any actual cost their transmission has been to the Government; besides, that cost on a fair business basis is covered by the 1 cent a pound rate. Besides this, all these publications have been and are doing an educational work for the Government that is absolutely essential to its existence and continuance, and that could not possibly be accomplished with anything like the extent or effectiveness in any other way, if it could be accomplished at all. I never heard yet that Congress was running around doing this thing for the publishers.

Indirectly these publications have helped to swell the receipts for first-class mail in the Postal Department by materially adding to the prosperity of all through inculcation of proper principles, encourag ing improvements, giving forth new inventions, and advertising better methods, and contributing to the general sum of prosperity, good citizenship, correct living, and progressive ideas. In corroboration of my statement that the 1 cent a pound rate is a fair business rate, I will say that I would like to take the contract for delivering all the papers of the United States at 1 cent a pound. I think the express companies would be glad to get such a contract.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions to be asked of Mr. Herbert? If not, that will terminate his address. Mr. Secretary, who is next on the programme?

The SECRETARY. The next person on the programme is Mr. T. T. Williams, manager of the New York American and Journal, who represents what is known as the Hearst organization of papers throughout the United States.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. IS Mr. Williams present?

The SECRETARY. Mr. Williams has filed a brief.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. Then let the brief be entered in the proceedings at this point as the brief of his association of papers.

BRIEF OF HEARST ORGANIZATION OF PAPERS, T. T. WILLIAMS,

MANAGER.

1. The second-class postal rate was made for the benefit of all the people, for the enlightenment of the nation, and for the dissemination of news and education. It has never been a source of profit to publishers of daily newspapers, as nearly all such publications are sold to their subscribers for less than the cost of production.

2. All the deficit in the post-office caused by the excessive use of the second-classs rate has been charged against newspapers. This is