Mr. NORRIS. Oh, entirely. It is within a hundred miles. But, on the other hand, while we pay $268 per week to the United States Government for transportation, for a comparatively equal amount we pay $164 to the express companies. The average ratio is as 16 to 26.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. Do you make any shipments by express to news agents beyond the 500-mile limit?

Mr. NORRIS. No, we have comparatively few news agents beyond that limit.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. And those shipments are made by mail. It is more expensive by mail or by express beyond the 500-mile limit.

Mr. NORRIS. The fact that we send them by mail would indicate that the mail was cheaper, because ordinarily the express gives us facilities in time which we do not ordinarily obtain by mail.

Senator CARTER. You ship to news agents in Chicago and St. Louis, do you not?

Mr. NORRIS. I do not know offhand to what extent that may go through the news companies, but we deliver in bulk.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. To what extent have you arrangements through your association for news agents to distribute the papers? In other words, do all the shipments to news agents receive individual distribution by the agents?

Mr. NORRIS. I do not clearly apprehend your question.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. The point is this; when you make a shipment of your papers to a news agent, does the news agent distribute them to the individual, or sell them, or is any proportion of those papers entered in the mail at that point?

Mr. NORRIS. Do you mean at the point of destination?

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. Yes; when you make a shipment by express or by railroad freight of a package of papers to a news agent, do any of those papers enter the mail anywhere?

Mr. NORRIS. Not that we are aware of.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. But where the shipment is made by mail to a news agent, they are delivered in bulk to a news agent just as they leave your office?

Mr. NORRIS. To news agents, yes. The package may go through in closed pouches, or in outside mail.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. What is the practice among the members of your association with reference to exchanges of papers?

Mr. NORRIS. While I am one of the committee of the association and have been delegated to appear here, I can only give you the information which I personally possess on that subject. I can not speak for all of the members of the association. We all exchange quite freely, but the extent of it varies.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. As a matter of fact, has not the practice of general exchange greatly fallen into disuse?

Mr. NORRIS. I am not competent to pass on that point, because I could not tell unless I saw the exchange tables of the various newspapers.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. Do you know approximately how many exchanges your paper receives the paper with which you are personally identified?

Mr. NORRIS. Approximately; yes.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. About how many?

Mr. NORRIS. About 400.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. How many of them are opened? Is it not a fact that only a limited per cent of the exchange copies are really opened?

Mr. NORRIS. I am entirely unable to give you the slightest information on that. Anything I would say would be the merest guesswork, and I could not be qualified to tell you unless I sat beside the exchange editor for twenty-four hours and saw it.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. You recommend the discontinuance of the second-class privilege upon sample copies?

Mr. NORRIS. That is right.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. What would you say to extending that recommendation so as to exclude exchange copies?

Mr. NORRIS. I am not prepared for the association to pass upon that point.

Senator CARTER. What is the volume of exchange papers as compared with the great mass of sample copies?

Mr. NORRIS. It is utterly insignificant.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. I quite agree with you; but if as a matter of practice only a limited percentage of exchange copies are really opened, has not the practice so fallen into disrepute that even if it is a small item it might be given attention?

Mr. NORRIS. No, sir. You lose sight of the other end of the proposition-that that exchange is usually given because the newspaper at the other end wants our paper and religiously opens it and uses it. Representative OVERSTREET. That is what I am trying to ascertain. Do you think they do it religiously? As a matter of fact, do you not think the practice very generally obtains that each paper has its peculiar list of preferences and limits its exchanges to those copies?

Mr. NORRIS. I am not prepared to give any intelligent opinion on that point.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. What is your judgment. Mr. Norris, with reference to the actual list of actual subscribers?

Mr. NORRIS. Do you mean what is our recommendation?

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. No. To make myself more plain, what, in your opinion, would be the result if the law now on the statute books were strictly enforced so as to limit the second-class privilege only to actual subscription papers?

Mr. NORRIS. I do not see any reason why it should not be entirely enforced.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. If it were enforced would it not bar a great many copies from the mail? In other words, are not the subscription lists longer than the actual number of subscribers?

Mr. NORRIS. Of newspapers?

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. NORRIS. Oh, no. With newspapers there are exceedingly few. The VICE-CHAIRMAN. I include all newspapers.

Mr. NORRIS. I am talking of daily newspapers.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. My question obtains as to all of them.

Mr. NORRIS. I am not qualified to talk on anything other than daily newspapers, and on that point there are substantially no sample copies sent out.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. I had that in mind.

Mr. NORRIS. It is a source of expense to us. It is a gift for which we get no return.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. I was going to ask if the practice of sending out sample copies has not fallen into disuse with daily newspapers? Mr. NORRIS. I think it has, very largely. The only occasions when that is done are those when circulation promotion is attempted. But our recommendation is aimed to cover that as well as every other form of sample copy.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. Mr. Norris, what have you to say about the location of publications near centers of population, but just outside, so as to escape the prohibition of delivery? What would you say to a change of the law which would require publications to be considered as issued in the city where the majority of their issue is distributed in that city?

Mr. NORRIS. I will say, in answer, that I am confident your commission is entirely competent to provide legislation, if any is necessary, to meet an evident evasion of the law.

Senator CARTER. How do your straight sales or sales through news agents compare in volume with the subscription lists of the daily paper?

Mr. NORRIS. I can only talk of our own newspaper.

Senator CARTER. That would be a fair sample.

Mr. NORRIS. Ours is not a fair sample, because--I may be pardoned because I do not want to unduly laud the newspaper with which I am connected.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. That is your source of information?

Mr. NORRIS. Yes. The New York Times has a large clientele among banks and investors by reason of the fact that we print a great deal of financial news, and also by reason of the fact that we print a literary supplement and have a very considerable literary following all over the United States; so that we are far in excess of the average.

Senator CARTER. With a suitable subscription list?

Mr. NORRIS. With à normal subscription list of a morning newspaper, the morning newspaper being very much in excess of the ordinary evening newspaper. Our subscription list is 6 per cent of our total.

Senator CARTER. Of the total output?

Mr. NORRIS. Of our total circulation.

Senator CARTER. That would probably be considerably above the

average.

Mr. NORRIS. I think considerably over the average output of daily newspapers.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. In making your comparison, Mr. Norris, of the postal service receipts and expenditures between the United States and Great Britain, you did not make any statement that the Great Britain service includes the telegraph service. Is there any reason for omitting that?

Mr. NORRIS. I do not know. My information was obtained entirely, substantially, from the report which was made by Mr. Loud, who was delegated by the commission of 1898 to go abroad with Mr. Bradley and look up that question.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. As a matter of fact, the postal system of

Great Britain does include the telegraph system, which constitutes quite a factor in the receipts.

Mr. NORRIS. Yes, sir.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. In view of the recommendations you have made to the Commission I want to ask you if you believe it would be practicable for the Government to completely separate the first-class mail from the other three classes, and give the first-class mail the best and highest service of expedition in collection and delivery, treating the second, third, and fourth-class mail, other than daily newspapers by slower methods of collection and distribution, and therefore at less expense?

Mr. NORRIS. My answer is that you now discriminate in expedition between the first class and the other classes.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. I mean to a greater extent than they do now? Mr. NORRIS. I am not competent to pass upon that.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. Would you regard it as practicable for the Government to handle bulky second-class matter other than daily newspapers by freight, eliminating it entirely from mail trains between the city of publication and cities where the entire freight shipment would be distributed?

Mr. NORRIS. I know of no reason to the contrary, but I am utterly incompetent to give an intelligent answer to that question.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. Would you regard it as practicable for the Government to fix and operate one rate for the literary and news part of a second-class publication and a different and higher rate for the purely advertising and commercial contents of the same issue?

Mr. NORRIS. May I ask a question for illumination? Do you mean if a newspaper had 55 per cent of its pages covered with advertisements and 45 per cent with news or reading matter?

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. News and reading matter?

Mr. NORRIS. News and reading matter; yes. That the newspaper should pay the 1 cent rate on the 45 per cent, and the higher rate on the 55 per cent.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. That is the question I am asking youwhether or not that would be practicable in operation?

Mr. NORRIS. I think that would be extremely complicated and almost impossible of audit; but the suggestion is a new one, and I am not prepared at this time to offer any suggestion except that I think it would be entirely out of the question.

Senator CARTER. As to a daily newspaper?

Mr. NORRIS. As to a daily newspaper.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. It would be less complicated for a monthly periodical, would it?

Mr. NORRIS. To the extent that the monthly periodical is only onethirtieth as numerous in issues as the daily.

Senator CARTER. Before we take a recess, let me inquire of the secretary whether or not the person who is to speak next is present.

The SECRETARY. Yes: Mr. Williams, who was called this morning and did not appear, is present. He says he will only take a few minutes.

The VICE-CHAIRMAN. We will take a recess until 3 o'clock, at which time we will hear Mr. Williams.

The Commission, at 2.10 o'clock p. m., took a recess until 3 o'clock

p. m.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

The Commission reassembled at the expiration of the recess.

STATEMENT OF THOMAS T. WILLIAMS, REPRESENTING THE HEARST NEWSPAPERS.

The CHAIRMAN. You may state your full name, Mr. Williams, and whom you represent.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Thomas T. Williams. I represent the Hearst publications.

Representative OVERSTREET. Suppose you name them.

Mr. WILLIAMS. New York American and Journal, New York Sunday American, Boston American, Boston Sunday American, Chicago American, Chicago Examiner, Chicago Sunday American, San Francisco Examiner, San Francisco Sunday Examiner, San Francisco Weekly Examiner, Los Angeles Examiner, Los Angeles Sunday Examiner, Hearst's Home and Fireside. That is all for the present. Representative OVERSTREET. Mr. Williams, have you a printed brief you have filed with Commission?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I will file it afterwards, if you wish.

The CHAIRMAN. Are those newspapers, Mr. Williams, run by central management in the sense that a great deal of the material in them is from a common origin?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Just the same, and only as to those parts which are of a magazine character--the same as the New York Herald, and the New York World, and other papers which get out illustrated magazine supplements which they sell to a chain of newspapers, and to any one who purchases them. Of course, if we collect news in London, or New York, or Berlin, or Paris, we first cable it to New York and distributte it to our other newspapers as an economical proposition.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. WILLIAMS. The present postal rate of the United States on second-class matter was arranged for the information and education of the people, not for the benefit of the publishers. The people have had the benefit of it entirely. Newspaper publishers have given all of its advantages to the public and have kept none for themselves. When the law was passed the largest newspaper in the United States was four pages and sold for 5 cents. At present you get a twentyfour page paper for 1 cent. The difference in value of white paper is the difference between 16 cents a pound and 2 cents a pound.

The newspapers carry free of charge much information for the public, especially about the Government. It may not always be accurate. Sometimes it is biased, but they do carry the speeches of the President, the speeches of Senators, the speeches of Congressmen, and information from the various departments. That is carried free of charge and the public is entitled to it.

The causes of the deficit are not due to the newspapers and the second-class matter altogether. Railroads are paid in some cases too much. Routes are stuffed at weighing time. The best proof, however, of my statement is that the railroads and express companies solicit our business and carry it for less than the Government charges. Take California: The express charges on newspapers to agents are 15 cents a hundred; at competitive points, 12 cents a hundred.