address-4 cents on an even pound. I would ask no question on its entering the mails save the solitary one of whether it is printed matter and would tax the rate accordingly, and I would provide for the exepeditious handling of newspapers and periodicals. There would then be no delay while some expert in the Department is determining whether the publication falls in or out of the technical qualifications for matter of that class, investigates and settles the question as to whether the list of subscribers is legitimate, and passes judgment on the numerous metaphysical questions involved in administration of the existing laws. That is one remedy.

Another would be if we are to keep the special privilege for newspapers and periodicals-to fix a limit for the amount of matter which can be put into a publication-text and advertising. Fix it so that we can measure off the space occupied by each with a tape line. Then every postmaster and every publisher can determine whether the thing to be mailed is of the second-class or not, in so far as the publication itself is concerned.

Representative MOON. To meet the deficiency you recommend an increase in the rate on second-class matter?

Mr. MADDEN. A flat rate on all printed matter is the need of the service for the good of the service, regardless of the deficiency.

Representative MOON. And regardless of the railway mail pay? Mr. MADDEN. Regardless of everything. I say that in that way we could operate the service satisfactorily. Every publisher would know what his rights were and the limits, if any. Every postmaster would be able to determine off-hand the rate of postage. That would be an ideal condition. Publishers would not have to wait for an answer as to the rate of postage on their mail matter while questions like those which require to be determined under the existing statutes are settled by the Department. Publishers are now sometimes kept on the anxious seat for months awaiting decisions which may wreck their businesses. The present laws are out of date.

Mr. MINER. Then any merchant can send his catalogue just as cheaply from here to San Francisco as I can send an educational periodical devoted to the instruction of the masses. Is that it, Mr. Madden?

The CHAIRMAN. Whom do you represent, Mr. Miner?

Mr. MINER. I represent the commercial college periodicals. want to ask if John Wanamaker, or any other merchant, can send his catalogue across the country just as cheaply as I can send a periodical devoted to the education of the masses?

Mr. MADDEN. That is a question of your judgment-educating the masses. Somebody else might think you are not educating them at all. Self-appointed educators should pay the freight.

Mr. MINER. The people of this country, who are really the government, are deeply interested.

Mr. MADDEN. A good many people may differ with you as to whether you are educating them, and may not wish to be taxed to carry out your theory of education.

Mr. GLASGOW. Let us take a magazine about which there is no question whether it is educational or not.

Mr. MADDEN. I beg your pardon. There is a question about every one of them.

Mr. GLASGOW. You think none of them is educational?

Mr. MADDEN. There is not one of them but some question is raised about it.

Mr. GLASGOW. Your view is that a catalogue of advertisements should be reduced and the literary magazine should be increased in the mail rate, and they should meet at 4 cents, is that it?

Mr. MADDEN. I answered, when I was asked by Judge Moon, that the rate should be decreased on printed matter in general and increased on newspapers and periodicals (make one class of both) to make administration possible and facilitate the service. I say it should be none of the business of the Post-Office Department to inquire, in the matter of fixing postage rates, whether a publication is educational or not. That is for the man who buys it and for the man who sells it to settle. It should not be required to pass the judgment of some official in the Post-Office Department as to whether it is educational or not. These publications [exhibiting a copy of the Police Gazette (Exhibit 19a) and a copy of the Ladies' Magazine, of Portland, Me. (Exhibit 19)] will be claimed to be educational in their fields. Their publishers will say that a great number of people demand them and find in them elevating literature. They are sold cheap, and their readers, it is said, can not pay $5 or $6 a year for the Review of Reviews, or the Atlantic Monthly, or some publication of that kind.

Mr. GLASGOW. You do not meet my question, Mr. Madden. If you take a periodical devoted to literature and educational purposesnow, there may be some doubt about which it is, but suppose you take one that is devoted to those purposes-your proposition is to increase about four times the postage on that magazine and to cut in two the postage on Wanamaker's advertising magazine, so that the two will meet at 4 cents.

Mr. MADDEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GLASGOW. So you would reduce postage on advertisements and increase it on the others?

Representative OVERSTREET. I would like to ask Mr. Glasgow at this point how he would apply his own questions to a magazine which is devoted in its literary pages entirely to education, but which has more advertising pages than literary pages?

Mr. GLASGOW. I do not object to the advertising.

Representative OVERSTREET. I am asking you how you would apply your question to that case.

The CHAIRMAN. Here is a standard magazine, Mr. Madden. Nearly half of it is advertising, is it not?

Mr. MADDEN. I believe so.

Representative OVERSTREET. I would like to ask you how you would treat that kind of a magazine?

Mr. GLASGOW. I do not know that I understand your question.

Representative OVERSTREET. Suppose we have a magazine, 40 per cent of which is devoted exclusively to a high degree of educational matter of a literary character and 60 per cent to ordinary adver

tisements.

Mr. GLASGOW. Yes.

Representative OVERSTREET. Ought it to be treated on the ground of literature and education or on the ground of commercialism?

Mr. GLASGOW. I think it ought to be treated as it is now, because

the insertion of the advertisement along with the literature has reduced the cost of it to the people who use it.

Representative OVERSTREET. The literary pages are put in as an excuse, and the advertising is the feature in many cases.

Mr. GLASGOW. No; I think not.

Mr. MINOR. I would like to ask Mr. Madden if there is a purely educational publication in this country that carries 30 per centwhether they do not all carry less than 30 per cent?

Mr. MADDEN. I gave an illustration--the Iron Age. It is regarded as educational in its field, and I presume it is as good as any periodical devoted to the iron industry.

Mr. MINOR. I do not consider that educational.

Mr. MADDEN. Oh, then there is a difference of opinion. You differ with somebody else. I will guarantee the publisher thinks it is educational.

Mr. COLLINS. I would like to ask Mr. Madden a question.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you state your name and whom you represent, Mr. Collins?

Mr. COLLINS. My name is P. V. Collins. I am vice-president of the Weekly Publishers' Association of America, composed of 4,200 publishers.

I wish to ask Mr. Madden if it is not a fact that the express companies will carry our publications 500 or 600 miles for 1 cent a pound and make a profit on it, and if they can do it why can not the Government do it? They solicit the patronage.

Mr. MADDEN. I do not believe, Mr. Chairman, I am required to answer a question of that kind. I will confess this: If I were running the post-office service as a private institution it would not cost me so much.

Mr. KRACKOWIZER. Then your trouble is with the contract with the railway companies?

Mr. MADDEN. I do not know if there is trouble of that kind. I have said we can not enforce these laws. They are practically nullified.

Mr. COLLINS. Is it not a fact that the express companies will send a pound 500 miles for 1 cent, and is it not also a fact that the average haul is less than 500 miles?

Mr. MADDEN. I think the express companies do solicit business on the rates you have stated, but I do not know that the average haul is less than 500 miles.

Representative OVERSTREET. What would be your suggestion in regard to the distribution outside of the 500-mile limit?

Mr. COLLINS. I presume they would distribute pro rata.

Representative ÖVERSTREET. You assume in your question that the Government could afford to distribute within the 500-mile limit at a cent a pound. What would be your individual judgment as to the course the Government should take beyond the 500-mile limit?

Mr. COLLINS. I would see no objection to having a zone of distribution.

Representative OVERSTREET. And increase the rates?

Mr. COLLINS. Yes; but the point I wanted to make was in contradiction of the charge that it costs the Government 7 cents a pound to distribute, when the express companies, private institutions, will do it at a profit at a cent a pound.

Representative OVERSTREET. But you admit that is within the 500mile limit?

Mr. COLLINS. Yes, sir; and that is the average distance within which the Post-Office Department distributes our magazines.

Representative OVERSTREET. Is it your judgment that the average haul is 500 miles for magazines?

Mr. COLLINS. Yes, sir.

Representative OVERSTREET. What is the average haul for a daily newspaper?

Mr. COLLINS. It would depend on what the daily newspaper would be. I would say less than 100 miles. I have no definite statistics as to what the average haul would be. It would be simply a question of judgment.

Representative OVERSTREET. Then, representing your group of periodicals, you would see no objection to the zone system of charging?

Mr. COLLINS. Except that it is contrary to the fundamental principle of our postal laws, I see no objection.

Representative OVERSTREET. We are trying to arrive at a fair con

clusion.

Mr. COLLINS. I have no objection to that.

Representative OVERSTREET. What information have you as to the cost of carriage by the express companies beyond the 500 miles? Mr. COLLINS. I have none at all. I do not know.

Representative OVERSTREET. Then, if it costs, approximately, a cent a pound to carry by express or by mail within 500 miles, the rate would have to be considerably increased to go across the continent, would it not?

Mr. COLLINS. Yes, sir.

Representative OVERSTREET. Would your publications have any objection to that, Mr. Collins?

Mr. COLLINS. I think not, except a few of them, perhaps.

Senator CARTER. Mr. Collins, will you furnish us specific information with reference to the disposition of the express companies generally to carry magazines and periodicals at the rate of 1 cent per pound within a radius of 500 miles and distribute the same to the individual subscribers, whether in the villages or in the country round about?

Mr. COLLINS. I think I could do so by to-morrow.
Senator CARTER. That is a very important point.

Representative OVERSTREET. And may I suggest that you furnish us with some statement as to the expedition of it, whether it is done with the same expedition as the mail?

Mr. COLLINS. I would imagine it is done more expeditiously. They are private corporations. They want business.

The CHAIRMAN. Do the express companies do much of this work of carrying periodicals and distributing them?

Mr. COLLINS. It is a growing enterprise.

The CHAIRMAN. It is a new thought to me. I did not know about it before, and I do not think the Commission did.

Mr. KRACKOWIZER. It is notorious that the book rates, so called, are always cut by the express companies. I can send right out of this town by the express companies magazines or anything else I choose for 2 cents cheaper than you charge.

Representative OVERSTREET. Is there any law against your doing that as much as you choose?

Mr. KRACKOWIZER. No; but that simply shows they will cut under every time and that the charge for carrying our publication is not a just one.

Representative OVERSTREET. Mr. Collins, suppose the Government should exclude from the mail all monthly periodicals, do you believe they would be taken care of by the express companies?

Mr. COLLINS. I never knew a monopoly to charge any less than it had to charge. You can make the express company a monopoly, and of course its prices will go up.

Representative OVERSTREET. Is there only one express company? Mr. COLLINS. It is said there are four reasons why we do not have a parcels post, consisting of the four express companies.

Mr. GLASGOW. In the southern country there is only one, the Southern Express. If you take this section of the United States. there are the Adams and the Baltimore and Ohio Express. If you take the district west of the Mississippi, I think you will find but one. Representative OVERSTREET. Mr. Collins seems to have considerable information about express matters. I want to know whether in his judgment, with his information, he would expect the express companies to take over this character of transportation if the Government should limit itself entirely to communication.

Mr. COLLINS. No, sir; not at that price. The minute they had the monopoly they would naturally raise the price.

Representative OVERSTREET. Do you think the Government would have the right, under the Constitution, to fix and upset price which they might charge?

Mr. COLLINS. I am not enough of a lawyer to answer a legal question of that kind; but the main point I want to emphasize is that the express company, as a private enterprise, is doing this thing now and making a profit at it.

Representative OVERSTREET. That is, within 500 miles.

Mr. COLLINS. Within 500 miles, which is the average haul that the post-office carries periodicals. Of course there are cases where the post-office carries periodicals clear across the continent. It does the same with letters, but we have a uniform rate, based probably on the average. I do not believe the average haul of periodicals is more than 500 miles.

Representative OVERSTREET. Are you familiar with the publication that Mr. Madden referred to, published in Portland Me.? Do you know that that is loaded in carload lots for points west of the Mississippi River?

Mr. COLLINS. Unquestionably. So are a great many of the larger publications, but offsetting that is the average as based on the distribution of the papers published by the association that I represent— county papers. Their average would probably not be over 10 or 15 miles.

Representative OVERSTREET. I was speaking of the monthly periodicals, not of the county periodicals.

Mr. COLLINS. They are all periodicals. What is sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for the gander.

The CHAIRMAN. How are these periodicals distributed to the subscribers? Do the express companies have carriers at different points?