cheese factories to be made into cheese and butter. The contract is usually let to the lowest bidder to gather this milk in what they call milk routes, beginning at the most distant place and gathering it up as they approach the cheese factory. It was easy, by getting at the tonnage from the cheese factories and the prices, to reduce it to tons per mile, which I did in many instances, and the quotient was almost a constant factor, did not vary but a little; and then after the cheese was manufactured in these cheese factories it was hauled to the railroad station, and there also again was competition, and it was let under such terms that it was easy to convert it into tons per mile. Also in that country in the last decade there has been a great deal of timber sold and taken away, sometimes in the shape of lumber and sometimes as timber. In most cases it was hauled by the thousands, so much a thousand feet, but that was easy to convert into tons per mile, and having obtained these facts on the various kinds of roads and various distances, I deduced the result which I have stated. Then for the shorter haul, in the city of Cleveland entirely on paved streets, or nearly so, I confined my investigations to the heavy material, such as brick, stone, lumber, and building material, such as are furnished and delivered at so much a thousand, or so much a ton. Converting that into tons per mile I found that it was close to the same average. Occasionally I would find that the rates were as low as 15 cents a ton per mile. That was the minimum. In many instances it would go 50 cents a ton a mile. Now, this that I speak of was not under any contract for full loads; but where there were partial loads, and very bad roads, it would go to about 50 and the average on the whole was about 25 cents per ton per mile. In 1893 I first published this result, which I believe to be the first table ever published in this country or anywhere, so far as I know, giving the rate per ton per mile of transporting on the common roads by animal power.

Q. (By Senator KYLE.) Have you made an estimate of the variations between the pioneer shipments on pioneer roads and those by modern, improved roads?-A. Well, I have not gone into that comparison so thoroughly as I did into the com. parison between the average by animal power and the other forms of inanimate power. Those investigations have been made, however, and I am familiar with the difference. From 10 to 15 cents is the average cost over the best improved roads. According to the consular reports it goes as low as 8 cents in European countries.

Q. Per ton per mile?-A. Eight cents per ton per mile; but in this country I think it is somewhere between 10 and 15 cents. Of course you understand that we have a very small proportion of the entire mileage of good roads. It is estimated that only 1 per cent of the entire mileage of the country has been improved so as to make the sort of road that you now speak of.

Q. There would be that variation between the old Ohio turnpike road and the ordinary dirt road, 10 to 15 cents, very nearly, would there not?-A. Probably 15 cents a ton a mile.

Q. (By Mr. A. L. HARRIS.) You say you took into consideration good roadsthat is, roads in good condition and roads in bad condition and at different seasons of the year?-A. Yes.

Q. How far have you considered the subject of propelling heavy loads upon the best improved roads by animal power? I mean to say, Which is the best system of roads?-A. Ordinarily, the best road is the stone road. That is to say, the best road that has ever been put into general use. I am not certain that it is the best road that can be produced. We are making experiments on steel-plate ways. It is very likely that an improvement can be made when steel is sufficiently low so as to permit its use for that purpose. That would result in a more durable road and a road that would require a diminished power to move the vehicle, and thereby reduce the cost of transportation a good deal lower than the figures I have given.

Q. Before you leave that point, I wish you would describe your steel-plate ways for roads and the cost, if you have an estimate.-A. Yes; I have a diagram showing the substructure and the superstructure, which I submit.

Q. I wish you would give us the substructure and the amount of metal, the kind and the width of the metal, together with the paving or whatever you use for the roadbed.-A. Well, the plate way is a very simple structure, consisting of two parallel plates a sufficient distance apart to receive the wheels of vehicles of ordinary gauge. They are 8 inches in width, with a flange upon the inside instead of the outside, so the lowest part will be on the outside instead of in the middle. Then there are projecting flanges that go below the surface and are embedded into a concrete foundation. This concrete foundation is only about a foot in width, or sufficient to receive the plate and to retain it and support it without any cross-ties or longitudinal stringers. There is no perishable matter used in connection with it, but only the steel plate itself with projecting flanges, and the concrete, which is laid in trenches about a foot wide and a foot deep. Two advantages of that plate way are: First, it is durable; it will last indefinitely; there is one case in Canada where a bridge has been equipped with plate ways of soft iron instead of steel, and it has been in use for over 30 years with very little wear. Second, the vehicle moves with much less power.

Q. What is the weight of this plate per yard, or per rod, or per foot, and its thickness?-A. It is about a quarter of an inch thick, and I do not now recall the weight per yard. It has passed out of my mind. I can, however, supply those figures exactly. The cost of it would be about $3,500 per mile; that is, at the prices prevailing before the late increase. It would be more than that now.

Q. Is that cost just for the plate or for the entire road?-A. Well, that is for the plate. The additional cost of laying it would have to be added to that.

Q. What would that be?-A. It would cost about $5,000 a mile, complete. The space between the rails has to be macadamized, and a space about 1 foot on each side, so as to allow vehicles to approach it and leave it without difficulty. The added cost brings it up to a higher price than ought to be put in, perhaps, for the country roads at the present time. I do not recommend the use of that at the present time, and I do not think it would be the most desirable except in level countries and where they may be destitute of other means or other materials for road use.

Q. (By Senator KYLE.) Your plan is to have this condition for cars propelled by animal pawer?-A. It is for the ordinary vehicle propelled by any poweranimal power or other power; that is, an automobile or any vehicle used on an ordinary road would go the better on this road. The tables that I have seen published by Gilmore and other engineers say it takes only one-fifth the power to move a vehicle over steel that it does over the macadam roads.

Q. You could use animal power to haul a vehicle or you could attach a traction engine if necessary.-A. Yes.

Q. (By Mr. A. L. HARRIS.) Is this estimate upon a single track?-A. Single track; yes. The turnout is provided for the same as it is on the plank roads. You probably have seen the plank roads. We make on each side about 1 foot of solid inacadamized roadway so as to take the wheels out of the plate way. You may turn off at any place the same as you can on the single-track road of any ordinary description.

Q. Does the wheel have any difficulty in going over this flange?-A. No, sir: we do not find any difficulty of that kind. We make the flange only about half an inch in height, and upon the inside instead of the outside, which makes it easier to leave the track than if it was on the outside. At the same time it is sufficient to give the vehicle, or the animal, more power in a longitudinal direction.

Q. Have you tested the difference in the power of propelling the same load, the same weight, over this steel-plate way compared with the ordinary macadam road?— A. Well, I made a test at Omaha in 1898 on the exposition grounds to show what weights could be hauled over this road. I did not inake the other test, but I compared it with tests that were made by other persons, and especially in testing the strength of a wagon where they had hauled a very heavy load, weighing 11 tons, and where they required 10 teams to haul the load. That was not over a macadam road; it was over a common road. It took 20 horses or 10 teams to haul this heavy load over the common road, the way that they had. I took a load of equal weight and put it upon a train of 3 wagons. It took 3 wagons to get a sufficient space to hold a load of that weight, and we hauled it very easily with one small horse, showing a proportion of about 20 to 1 in the tractive power. Now that, I think, is about the real proportion that exists, from 20 to 25 to 1. That is according to Gilmore's tables, and other experiments, I had known about this difference. The purpose of the experiment there was to show by object lesson how small a power really is required to move a vehicle on the best road that can be produced. It is very remarkable to consider how much more power is required to move over rough roads and over soft roads and over

hilly roads than is actually required to move over a smooth, straight, and level road. There is a difference of many fold in favor of the improved road.

Q. (By Senator KYLE.) Were the 20 horses able to pull this load of 22,000 pounds up hill and down, or was it on level ground?-A. Now, I did not see that test made. That was made by the Studebaker Wagon Company. I took their results. I did not see them make it, but I have the photographs that were preserved from that work as it was done before. I do not think it would have taken so many horses to move it on a level. I think they must have put on enough to move it over grades.

Q. The question came to me whether one small horse was able to move this load over any sort of a hill whatever.-A. No, I do not think it would be able to move it except on practically a level. That is, the same power would not move it. Now, this horse, I stated, easily moved it. We were all surprised to see how easily a small horse not only moved it, but started it. It takes a good deal more power to start a load than it does to move it afterwards. I believe that an animal could move fifty times its own weight. That we did not quite demonstrate, but this was about twenty-two times his weight-what was moved there. It is likely a strong animal would move fifty times its own weight. I call your attention to the fact that ordinarily the vehicle that you see moved only carries a weight about equal to the team that moves it. A team that will weigh a ton will only move about a ton; that is what you see for a load. A heavier team will move more, of course, if everything is favorable; but a load double the weight of the animals is a very large load, and you will seldom see it if you look out here or go into the country. Bear this rule in mind. You will find that the load carried is about equal to the weight of the animals that move it.

Q. Including the weight of the wagon and load?—A. Well, I do not now include the weight of the wagon; no, I do not include that, and neither did we in these experiments. The weight of the vehicle was not included. It is the net weight I speak of.

Another thing I will call your attention to. Very commonly the vehicle itself weighs about as much as the burden it carries. In other words, there is almost as much dead weight carried as there is live weight. Now, I think that is an error that can be overcome. That is to say, an improvement of the road beds will lead to an improvement of the vehicle by which it will be lightened in proportion to the burden it carries, and thus will be diminished the power required to move it.

Q. (By Mr. A. L. HARRIS.) Have you made investigation as to lightening the vehicle?-A. Well, I have made some observations and I have made some experiments. Of course what I speak of now about a change in the vehicle is a matter of the future, and may be considered experimental, but I have a profound impression to the effect that the cost of moving materials over the highways is excessive and unnecessarily high, and I spoke first of all of the fact that it figured out at the rate of 25 cents per ton per mile. I also have noticed that there has not been much of a reduction in that price covering a long period of time. Two generations ago it cost almost as much as now, and the fact that the cost remains at such a high and constant factor without change, compared with the very much reduced cost by other means, has led me to think that we could make an improvement which would help the people in the rural districts very much along all of these lines, and that is why I suggested the plate-way as one means. And then in reference to the vehicle a change should be made. The bicycle carries a good many times its own weight. That is the only vehicle you will see anywhere that carries many times its own weight. Now, if what has been done in that respect could be applied to a 4-wheeled vehicle, that would give a very great gain. I have made some experiments with models only so far, and I can say that I have produced models that would carry 20 times their weight, and I believe it is possible to make a 4-wheeled vehicle that will easily and safely carry 10 times its weight, and with the improvement of the roadbed so as to get some part of the possible gain there, together with a change in the vehicle so as to diminish the proportion of dead weight, there would be such a gain as would take off a large proportion of the cost. I estimate four-fifths of the present cost could be saved. Estimating it now at 25 cents per ton per mile, I think it can be reduced to 5 cents per ton per mile. That would then be ten times what it costs on the average for transportation on steam cars. I think that can easily be obtained.

Q. (By Senator KYLE.) Your investigations have been based upon the estimation that the roadbed was to be level? In other words, your estimation of $5,000 a mile for the construction of this track was to make a level roadbed practically level?-A. Well, no; the cost of making the roadbed would not increase by reason

of the grade, but the power required to move up a grade would have to be increased.

Q. The point I wanted to bring out was this, whether you would, in the road bed that costs $5,000-whether you would make cuts and fills?-A. No; that was not included; cuts and fills. I was going to say my purpose in making this demonstration was not to show or recommend that the load should be increased for 1 horse up to 11 tons, but only to show that the ordinary load of 1 ton, or 2 tons, or 3, or even 4 tons, could be moved with greatly diminished power, and then you may add again the necessary quantity of power for the grades. Perhaps you would have to double for the grades. My idea was to increase the loads somewhat and decrease the power somewhat-bring the two together. An 11-tou load would be too much of a load. You would not want to move that much. That used to be the full load for a steam car. We do not need to reach such a heavy load as that.

Q. In the fall season of the year, when the roads are solid and the farmer delivers his grain, with a good heavy team, he is able to pull up an incline of 30 degrees, probably 2 tons. That is a pretty heavy load for 2 big horses, yet I have seen them do it up an incline of 30 degrees. Now, how many tons could 2 good horses pull on a steel track up the same incline?-A. We do not get an equal gain on the grade that we do on a level.

Q. A farmer's good team can pull up an incline 2 tons. How many tons can the same horses pull up an incline on a steel track?-A. Well, I would only have to estimate that. I did not make a test upon a grade, but I do not think it would be over 50 per cent more on that steep grade. We have no means to diminish the power required to raise vertically the weight. It takes the same power to raise the weight. The aggregate power, in connection with the time required, would be the same. We can not diminish that, but we can diminish the rolling friction and the sliding friction. That is, we can eliminate the sliding friction and diminish the rolling friction so as to greatly diminish the power required to move on an ordinary level or grade. When it comes to a steep grade, we do not gain proportionately.

Q. The question is, where the economy comes in to the farmer. He would be compelled in any event to use the services of two horses and a man to haul his load of grain to market, and in case he used the improved track you mention the 2 horses would still be required, would they not?-A. No; we do not suppose he would take a larger load at any point than what he could take over the most difficult point; but ordinarily the grades are light in most of the country; at least in two-thirds of the country the roads can be made nearly level, so that with the extra energy of the horses up a small grade he can get along without doubling. Q. Would it not be more economical to bring the roads to a grade so long as you are entering upon a public enterprise?—A. Well, of course we do recommend that it should be brought to a 3 per cent grade, if possible, but 5 per cent could be very well gotten over. I want to call your attention to the fact that I do not recommend the use of this steel plate-way except in level countries where they would be destitute of other materials to build their roads of.

Q. (By Mr. A. L. HARRIS.) You do not recommend the plank road, but you do recommend the stone road. Will you please give the commission a little information as to the best way of building the stone roads that you have in mind?-A. I did not say that I recommend the stone road for all purposes. You asked me what was the best road produced. I say that is the best road. It may be too costly to be used in some cases, and there are many cases where there is no material whatever with which we can make it. I do not necessarily recommend that, but I say it is the best we can produce, and the best way to produce it is according to Macadam's plan. That is to dispense with any foundation, so called, of large stones; to prepare the earth in proper form, and then cover it with angular fragments of rock that have been reduced to uniform size, or nearly so, and when they are so reduced and properly spread upon the roadbed under pressure with moisture, they will consolidate and form practically one sheet of rock impervious to water. The ancient theory of road building was to prepare a heavy foundation similar to what might be used for buildings; that it was necessary to sustain the burden to have some very heavy substructure, and there was a great deal of cost and unnecessary labor put into these substructures, which engineers always recommended up until the time of Macadam. He seemed to make the discovery that the angular fragments of rocks when reduced to a uniform size would consolidate without any mixture of other substances or without any filling; that they would, by a mechanical process, work one upon another under pressure and moisture, and consolidate together in such way as to fill the interstices, so that in time the mass would become solid. That served a double purpose-one of mak

ing the roads smooth and durable, and another of throwing the water off. The three greatest difficulties we have in making the road are the frost, the water, and the grade which you speak of. Now, by this method of building the stone road out of the angular fragments we keep the water off, and also make a hard smooth surface. There are many improved methods of handling the stone, crushing, spreading, rolling, and consolidating, which have reduced the cost of producing these roads somewhat, although the cost is high yet. The State highway commission of Massachusetts that have been building for the past 4 years or more, report a cost of upward of $10,000 per mile for their roads in sections where material is very abundant, and they have all of the best means of producing, but they have never been able to produce them at lower than $10,000; generally cost more than that, although that includes, as I understand it, some necessary grading and the reduction of the grades to a reasonable minimum. Two years ago I was representing the Government for a short time. There was produced down here in the State of Maryland, Baltimore County, about 2 miles or so, under our auspices, a road at a cost of $2,500 per mile, completed, of trap rock, one of the best roads I have ever seen, and is still in perfect condition, and I have never known any road to be produced as good as that at that cost. One reason why we could do that, however, was because the material was right at hand. There were old stone fences distributed along on each side, and there was no grading to be done, to speak of, no hills to be reduced, and by using that stone with the improved methods of crushing and spreading, we produced the road for about $2,500 a mile, which is the best I have seen anywhere.

Q. Have you anything to suggest as to the most economical way of procuring labor to construct these roads?—A. Well, yes. In answering that question I would like to elaborate upon the necessity of our securing in some way a method to cheapen the cost of roads in order that we may provide a perfect system. I have already stated that only about 1 per cent of the entire mileage of the United States has been improved to anything like a degree of perfection. Ninety-nine per cent of the entire mileage is still practically unimproved. Now, considering the high cost that I referred to as being necessary to produce a high grade of road, either of stone or of steel, we know very well that we can not improve all this great mileage up to that high standard with any amount of means, or money, or labor that is obtainable. It would take an army of men, more than enough to conquer the world, and it would take a revenue more than would be required to pay and supply the armies of the world; so we know, in order to make a system complete, that we must devise means which shall cheapen the cost in some way, and the only two ways that we know of are to diminish the necessary mileage to reach the people, and then to diminish the cost per mile of building. The necessary mileage can be reduced in two ways. In the first place, the introduction of the electric cars or other cars propelled by inanimate power can be so multiplied as to serve a great many people and do a great part of the service which heretofore has been done by animal power, and by so doing it shortens the haul. We do not have to go as far with horses as we would have to do if it was not for the improvements that are reaching out. I ought to mention in this connection that the concentration of population within the last two decades has a bearing upon the subject, and will necessarily have to be considered in the improvement of the highways. We probably can't change the system as conceived and laid out. The pioneers who laid out the roads in our Western country put them about a mile apart. In the Southern States they are not so near together, but there is a very great mileage laid out with a view of accommodating a population that would be spread equally over the face of the country. Now, the change manifested in the concentration of population makes it necessary for the people raising products to take them to these great centers of population more than ever before and not to the industrial villages that were built up in the midst of rural communities. In order to bring about that result advantageously, new methods that I speak of are being brought in and it is entirely feasible to serve a great portion of the people without animal power at all. Also the increased advantages that come from this cheaper and better service will draw a portion of the remaining people to the better means of transportation. What has happened in reference to the concentration of people in cities I think will happen to those remaining in the country. We find many people still remaining in the country. These people will all be drawn gradually to these cheaper and better means of transportation that are being introduced and that we know are entirely feasible. I estimate that there will be 75 per cent of all the people living in cities and only 25 per cent remaining in the country, and this 25 per cent remaining in the country will most likely be drawn to the easy means of transportation or near the easy means of transportation, so that we can shorten the wagon haul from what it is now to a very much