of the South all of the children under the age of 16 years, and without any compulsory school law what is going to become of them? Take our village of Pelzer. We have 5,000 people. We have two policemen. They are a most remarkable set of people-the best people in the world-who work in these cotton mills. It is the very best stock, largely upon the mountain country, and they are pure, unadulterated Anglo-Saxons. In the 35 years that I have been there we have had only one murder in that town. Those two policemen are appointed by the government and paid by the corporation.

Now, we can not work people two hours a day; they will not make a living.

Senator LIPPITT. In reply to the question of the Senator, will you not explain to him that these children do not work in one department all by themselves, but that they are mixed in with the other operatives, and the machinery has to run proportionately so that it would not stop merely a few machines where the children work, but it would stop the whole thing in every department.

Mr. SMYTH. That was what I was trying to explain, that the children are mainly in the spinning room. We do not employ children in the weaving room, and but very few in the carding room. The children are employed in the spinning room, and we can not work them eight hours and then get somebody else to come in and work two hours. I suppose we could find them, but if we worked them five hours a day they would not make a living.

Senator POMERENE. Suppose you work one of these children eight hours per day and have him relieved by another child for the other two hours?

Mr. SMYTH. That could not be done. No other child would come in and work two hours.

Senator POMERENE. Not continuously, I dare say, but might that not happen on one day and the next day have him work his eight hours?

Mr. SMYTH. No, sir; we could not arrange that. It would be a practical impossibility. If the bill passes, the children under 16 are driven out of the mills.

Senator ROBINSON. How many children under 14 does that mill employ which Senator Pomerene asked you about?

Mr. SMYTH. He was asking me about between 14 and 16.

Senator ROBINSON. No; I am speaking about this mill. How many children under 14 are employed in that mill?

Mr. SMYTH. There are 102 between 12 and 14.

Senator ROBINSON. What number of those are boys and what number girls?

Mr. SMYTH. There are 69 boys and 49 girls.

Senator ROBINSON. Have you any children employed there under 12?

Mr. SMYTH. No, sir.

Senator ROBINSON. What work do these children under 14 perform?

Mr. SMYTH. They are spinners and sweepers.

Senator ROBINSON. What length of time do they work?

Mr. SMYTH. Sixty hours a week.

Senator ROBINSON. The same as the men in the mills?

Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir; all employees of the mill work the same time.

Senator ROBINSON. Does the work require their constant attention? Mr. SMYTH. It does not; no, sir. There is a great deal of playtime. If you go around the mills in the summer time you will find the boys out in the yard playing ball-what we call doffers. When the spinning frames become full of yarn, these boys have to doff them. While that is going on the spinners are doing nothing. The doffing comes every two hours.

Senator POINDEXTER. How long does that last?

Mr. SMYTH. The doffing lasts about half an hour.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. How often does that occur in one day?
Mr. SMYTH. Every two hours. Five times during the day.

Senator LIPPITT. You do not mean to say that the spinners are doing nothing while the doffing is going on, do you?

Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir: they are just playing about.

Senator ROBINSON. How do you get them back?

Mr. SMYTH. We whistle to them out of the windows to come back. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Why could you not arrange for a two-hour playtime for those between 14 and 16 years?

Mr. SMYTH. I did not catch that question.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Why could you not arrange for a two-hour playtime for those between 14 and 16 years?

Mr. SMYTH. Well, the boys between 14 and 16 have two hours' playtime now-an hour and a half to two hours in the mill in good weather.

Senator ROBINSON. You have testified about the conditions in the mills you are familiar with. I believe you stated that you are the head of the millers' organization of South Carolina.

Mr. SMYTH. The manufacturers' association; yes, sir.

Senator ROBINSON. Do you know the number of mills in South Carolina?

Mr. SMYTH. Approximately; yes, sir. There are about 4,000,000 spindles in South Carolina. I have given it to you in corporations. Take ours, for instance; we have 4 distinct mills, and in the corporation it is something like 120.

Senator ROBINSON. There would probably be more mills than that. Mr. SMYTH. Oh, more mills; yes, sir. Mills, something like 190. Senator ROBINSON. Are they all cotton mills?

Mr. SMYTH. That is what I am speaking of-cotton mills; yes, sir. Senator ROBINSON. How many of those are you familiar with, do you think-about how many?

Mr. SMYTH. I have visited almost every one of them, I think. Senator ROBINSON. Are you familiar with the sanitary conditions prevailing in them?

Mr. SMYTH. In general; yes, sir. I have been through them. Senator ROBINSON. The conditions are shown by your figures and statement in the one village or town to which you referred, and appear to me to be remarkable from a sanitary standpoint.

Mr. SYMTH. They are, with respect to the birth rate.

Senator ROBINSON. I believe you stated you had only two deaths from tuberculosis in 30 years.

Mr. SMYTH. In 30 years: yes, sir. You will hear other testimony from physicians upon the same matter.

1

Senator ROBINSON. Do you mean to say, in your opinion, that analogous and practically the same sanitary conditions prevail throughout the mills of South Carolina as at that particular mill?

Mr. SMYTH. I think so; yes, sir.

Senator ROBINSON. Have you made a comparison to know what the death rate, and especially the death rate from tuberculosis, is from the mill towns and in the towns where mills are located?

Mr. SMYTH. There have been no vital statistics kept in South Carolina at all until during the past year. At the session of the legislature last January and February such a law was enacted, but I have never seen the reports as yet; they have not been sent in.

Senator ROBINSON. The work has not yet proceeded far enough to enable you to arrive at a conclusion. Do you think that the health in the mill communities is very much better than the health in the rural communities?

Mr. SMYTH. I think it is fully as good and possibly better. Senator ROBINSON. It is inconceivable to me that you could find another community with so many inhabitants where there would be only two deaths from tuberculosis in a period of 30 years.

Mr. SMYTH. I did not say two.

Senator ROBINSON. Then I misunderstood you.

Mr. SMYTH. I said nine.

Senator ROBINSON. I understood you to say two.

Mr. SMYTH. No, sir; not in the 30 years.

Senator ROBINSON. If you did not say that, I misunderstood you. Mr. SMYTH. Nine is what I intended to say.

Senator ROBINSON. But even taking the figure 9, that is less than one in three years.

Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir. I have kept these statistics very carefully at Pelzer, because the charge has been made that the cotton-mill business is a very unhealthy one, and that it causes tuberculosis and causes different diseases.

Senator ROBINSON. That is the point to which I am addressing my inquiry now. If your statistics are reliable, and of course I have no means of impeaching them, they not only show that the cottonmill sections are very healthy, but that they are far more healthy than any other section in the State.

Mr. SMYTH. Well, take our town of Pelzer. The condition of health there is very much better than it is in any town in South Carolina where statistics are kept. I sent the reports to the Medical Society of South Carolina, and those reports came to me from physicians in the town. We have three physicians there and they make monthy reports of the births and deaths, the cause of death, and the ages.

Senator ROBINSON. Who keeps those?

Mr. SMYTH. The physicians send them in to me every month, and they are compiled in our office.

Senator ROBINSON. Have you ever checked the matter up or investigated it to know whether they kept an accurate record?

Mr. SMYTH. I have no reason to think they have not. They have

no reason not to do so, one way or the other.

Senator ROBINSON. But do you know that they have?

Mr. SMYTH. They have no interest in it one way or the other.

Senator ROBINSON. I do not mean to provoke an argument with you. I am simply asking you a question.

Mr. SMYTH. I can check the death rate, but not the causes of the diseases or the number of births.

Senator ROBINSON. What is your altitude at Pelzer?

Mr. SMYTH. About 1,100 feet.

Senator ROBINSON. What is the population of the town?

Mr. SMYTH. Five thousand. An old gentleman was walking on the streets of Pelzer a short time ago and he asked a man whom he met what the altitude was, and he told him 90 per cent Baptists. [Laughter.]

Senator ROBINSON. The atmosphere ought to be very pure at Pelzer at that altitude?

Mr. SMYTH. It is a very fine climate.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. He was thinking of the humidity. [Laughter.]

Senator ROBINSON. Are those vital statistics kept of the other mills in the State, or do you know anything about that?

Mr. SMYTH. I do not think they are. I have never heard of their being kept anywhere else.

Senator ROBINSON. You made a statement some time ago that Pelzer was regarded by many as a show mill. What do you mean by that?

Mr. SMYTH. That has been charged by some of the national childlabor people.

Senator ROBINSON. Why?

Mr. SMYTH. Because they knew the conditions there were good and they could not gainsay them; they could not contradict it. Senator ROBINSON. Is it not just as true

Mr. SMYTH. They said the mill there was not to be considered a criterion, because other mills were very much worse off; but this mill was always put forward as ideal in a sanitary way.

Senator ROBINSON. Can not the same things be obtained at other mills?

Mr. SMYTH. Certainly, they could be.

Senator ROBINSON. Why are the statistics kept at that one mill. and why are not some statistics available there from other mills? Mr. SMYTH. If they choose to take the trouble to keep them, there is no reason why they could not be kept.

Senator ROBINSON. You say you are president of the organization, and you discuss everything in that organization except the wage scale?

Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir.

Senator ROBINSON. Why do you not discuss that?

Mr. SMYTH. Because we do not want to appear to be trying to coerce labor or to agree among ourselves as to what wages ought to be.

Senator ROBINSON. And what is the primary purpose of the organization in South Carolina?

Mr. SMYTH. It is to protect ourselves on freight rates mainly. Senator ROBINSON. Then, you discuss freight rates, I take it, a good deal?

Mr. SMYTH. We discuss our freight rates and legislation and insurance. We all have our mutual insurance companies.

Senator ROBINSON. Do you discuss the child-labor legislation? Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir; we discuss that, among other legislation. There is frequent legislation proposed in South Carolina. There was legislation proposed the other day to regulate the humidity of the mill-and Senator Lippitt will appreciate this and the resolution proposed to fix the standard, that the temperature should not rise above a certain degree, and if it varied 5°, up or down, no matter what the climatic condition was on the outside, it was considered a misdemeanor. It was considered seriously by the Legislature of South Carolina.

Senator ROBINSON. The attitude of the organization is one of opposition to this legislation, I take it?

Mr. SMYTH. Very decidedly.

Senator ROBINSON. But I believe, if I remember your statement correctly, that it is based not on the interest of the organization but on sympathy for the employees between the ages of 14 and 16, particularly with the parents of those employees.

Mr. SMYTH. Our opposition is based upon a twofold ground: First, you may say, because the age of 16 would cause a great hardship to a great many deserving people in South Carolina and in other Southern States; and, secondly, we object to Federal supervision and control of the industries of South Carolina.

Senator ROBINSON. Upon what is that objection based?

Mr. SMYTH. Well, we think it is a matter to be regulated by the State.

Senator ROBINSON. Your objection is a constitutional objection, is it a legal objection?

Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir; I am not a lawyer, and, of course, I do not express an opinion as to the constitutionality of it, but I do object to it as being an interference with our internal affairs.

Senator ROBINSON. What is the death rate among children employed in your mill?

Mr. SMYTH. It is very small.

Senator ROBINSON. I know; but what is it. Of course it is bound to be very small.

Mr. SMYTH. I have not the detailed figures here with me. I have that but I did not think it necessary to get it.

Senator ROBINSON. That is rather more important than the death rate of the total population, is it not?

Mr. SMYTH. The death rate at Pelzer, the largest rate, of course, is among children under. I would say, 5 years of age. That, I think, you will find everywhere.

Senator ROBINSON. Have you any statistics or have you kept any, showing the mortality rate among the children employees of your institution?

Mr. SMYTH. Well, our figures would show the total deaths in Pelzer.

Senator ROBINSON. But that is not the question.

Mr. SMYTH. How do you mean?

Senator ROBINSON. You have a certain number of employees, have you not?

Mr. SMYTH. Yes, sir.

27896-16- -2