Messaba ores are at or near Chicago, or Gary, and at Pittsburg, are they not?

Mr. WITHERBE. Gary is not yet started. It will be, though. I would rather leave that to Mr. Mather, who follows me, because I am not familiar with the cost.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. There is one other question that I would like to ask you. As to this foreign ore that you say may possibly come in competition with American ore, coming from Labrador and other countries, what would be the cost of transportation of bringing that into this country?

Mr. WITHERBE. That varies anywhere from ballast rate up. When there is an enormous amount of grain to come out, it will go out almost as ballast. I should say that the rate would run from 5 to 7 shillings, on the average. That would be $1.25 to $1.50.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. The cost of transportation of that foreign ore that may compete with ours would amount to $1.25 to $1.50 a ton, then?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. That is all that I wanted to ask.

Mr. HILL. What was the total amount of iron ore mined in 1907, about?

Mr. WITHERBE. I think it was about 52,000,000 tons.

Mr. HILL. And we imported about 1,000,000 tons?

Mr. WITHERBE. Rather more than that, I think, in 1907.

The CHAIRMAN. Half from Cuba and half from the rest of the world?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. HILL. What I was bringing out when I said 1,000,000 tons was that the eastern iron-ore manufacturers have met that. What proportion of the supply in the United States is controlled by the United States Steel Company?

Mr. WITHERBE. What proportion?

Mr. HILL. Yes; I mean owned and controlled.

Mr. WITHERBE. Well, I only know what I see in the papers and have read, and I would have to give you that from recollection. Mr. HILL. If you do not know, do not attempt to answer.

Mr. WITHERBE. I would rather not answer.

Mr. HILL. Very well.

Mr. GRIGGS. I understood you to say that you were apprehensive of great developments in iron ore in Cuba?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. GRIGGS. That is, for the future?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIGGS. Are you in competition with anything in Belgium? Mr. WITHERBE. Not directly; only the finished material in Belgium competes with the finished material of America.

Mr. GRIGGS. I ask you that because you are the only man I have seen who is not, directly. Do you not think we had better annex Belgium?

Mr. WITHERBE. I would be very glad to own the iron and coal deposits as they are located in Belgium. I have visited Belgium often, and I think they produce the cheapest steel there in the world. Í do not think there is any part of the world that can compete with Belgium, because if you go through the plants you will see the women

and children taking the ore out of the cars, and the coke, and putting it in the hoists to go up to the furnace top, and you will see all kinds of labor used around the plant.

Mr. GRIGGS. Then she even competes with you?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. GRIGGS. A pestiferous little cuss, isn't she?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes; she is. I have a great respect for Belgium, and I think anybody has, even England.

Mr. RANDELL. You say you would like to have Belgium annexed to this country. Would not that ruin our iron industry?

Mr. WITHERBE. That might be true, but at the same time I do not like her where she is now, competing with us.

Mr. RANDELL. Yes; but there would be no tariff wall between her and this country if she was in this country. Would it not ruin every industry in the country?

Mr. WITHERBE. No; I think I ought to retract that. What I had in mind was the resources of Belgium. I said I would like to have its iron and coal, located as they are.

Mr. RANDELL. Do you not need protection?

Mr. WITHERBE. Against Belgium? Certainly.

Mr. RANDELL. Do you not need protection against the Lake Superior and Minnesota fields more than any others in the world?

Mr. WITHERBE. No, sir; I do not fear Lake Superior at all. The amount of ore that they ship to the sea is a help rather than a hindrance.

Mr. RANDELL. Where do you get your principal competition?
Mr. WITHERBE. From the foreign ore.

Mr. RANDELL. Where, principally?

Mr. WITHERBE. All through eastern Pennsylvania and New Jersey, wherever our ore is used. Lake Superior ores are used as mixing ores. Mr. RANDELL. Where is your competition?

Mr. WITHERBE. In Pennsylvania and New Jersey.

Mr. RANDELL. You have no competition from foreign ores?
Mr. WITHERBE. No; our competition is with foreign ores.

What

I understood you to say was where was our competition. I say our competition is from foreign ore that comes into New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

Mr. GAINES. Mr. Randell's question is, Where does the ore come from which competes with you?

Mr. RANDELL. Yes.

Mr. GAINES. Where does it come from?

Mr. WITHERBE. The ore that bothers us comes from Spain and Newfoundland and Belgium.

Mr. RANDELL. You get that in competition?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes, sir. The rates into Pennsylvania from Spain are less than they are from our mines.

Mr. RANDELL. That ore is used for blending?

Mr. WITHERBE. No; they substitute it for ours.

Mr. RANDELL. The ore from Cuba

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. RANDELL (continuing). Is substituted for what?

Mr. WITHERBE. For our ores; but they do blend it a little, to be perfectly fair.

.

Mr. RANDELL. Yes; I supposed you wanted to be fair about it.
Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. RANDELL. Suppose Cuba was annexed, would not that ruin the iron industry? There would be no tariff wall then.

Mr. WITHERBE. I think it would injure the iron-ore trade. I suppose that eventually we would come around to reduced wages, and take less return on our money, and possibly beat the Cuban ore.

Mr. RANDELL. Do you think we would have less industry in the United States if we let Cuban ore in?

Mr. WITHERBE. I do not think it would affect the industry. There is nothing made in Cuba but the iron and steel.

Mr. RANDELL. Do you not know as a fact that the tariff on iron ore and iron products does affect the price to the consumer of this country in all the products of iron and steel?

Mr. WITHERBE. I do not know that I understood your question. Would you mind stating that question again?

Mr. RANDELL. Does not the tariff bring up the price to the consumer in iron and steel products?

Mr. WITHERBE. No, sir; I do not think so; not altogether.

Mr. RANDELL. Then you think that the products would be just as low without the tariff?

Mr. WITHERBE. I think that it depends entirely on the conditions of the trade. I think last year there was such a condition.

Mr. RANDELL. You think it was higher?

Mr. WITHERBE. It was higher last year than this year.

Mr. RANDELL. I am not talking about any special month. They do or do not have an effect. Do they have any effect?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANDELL. We could shorten the time very much if you would just answer my questions, and we will be through in a very few minutes. In that case does it have any effect?

Mr. WITHERBE. The duty?

Mr. RANDELL. Yes; on the price?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. RANDELL. Now, we have gotten through with that proposition. The industry is a well-established one, is it not?

Mr. WITHERBE. The iron and steel industry?

Mr. RANDELL. Yes.

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. RANDELL. Will there ever be a time when, if the tariff should be removed, this industry will be strong enough to walk on its feet and sustain itself and quit levying a higher price on the consumer in order to exist?

Mr. WITHERBE. Why, yes, sir; the time will come.

Mr. RANDELL. Has not the time already come?

Mr. WITHERBE. No, sir; I do not think so.

Mr. RANDELL. If we took the tariff off of iron and steel, the industry would drop?

Mr. WITHERBE. I can not answer that question by yes or no. I can answer it better by an illustration than in any other way. Pig iron

is selling at $7.50 f. o. b. ship at Middlesburg. It costs $1.50 or possibly $2 to bring it through. It comes into New York Harbor at a price of $14.50. The price of the domestic pig in New York Harbor is probably $16. Now, putting that at actual cost, I do not believe that to-day domestic iron can be put into New York Harbor for $16. Mr. RANDELL. Do you not think that the tariff ought to be so arranged that you can get the New York market absolutely, practically without competition? Do you not look at it from that standpoint? Mr. WITHERBE. Partly.

1

Mr. RANDELL. Do you not think you ought to get nine-tenths of the trade in New York City? That is the way you look at it, is it not?

Mr. WITHERBE. I look at it that the tariff ought to be so arranged that it will compensate for the difference in wages.

Mr. RANDELL. If you will answer that, I will soon be through with

you.

Mr. WITHERBE. I am trying to.

Mr. RANDELL. Do you not think a proper tariff would give you at least nine-tenths of the trade of New York City?

Mr. WITHERBE. A proper tariff?

Mr. RANDELL. Yes.

Mr. WITHERBE. A proper tariff; yes, sir.

Mr. RANDELL. Would that not give you a monopoly, practically, over all the rest of the country?

Mr. WITHERBE. It is hard to differentiate one point from another. New York is hardly a competitive point.

Mr. RANDELL. The foreign article would have to pay the freight to the interior, would it not ?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. RANDELL. Would it not give the manufacturers in the iron industry practically all over the United States a monopoly? Just an

swer yes or no.

Mr. WITHERBE. It would ordinarily, under ordinary conditions. Not this year.

Mr. RANDELL. I am talking about ordinary conditions. Then your answer is that it would give a monopoly?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. RANDELL. Do you mean that or not?

Mr. WITHERBE. I mean, with a tariff framed as it should be, to give a reasonable compensation between the two-that is, the cost of the pig iron abroad and the cost of the labor in producing it in Americathat it ought to be so adjusted that it would give the benefit to the American producer.

Mr. RANDELL. I did not ask you that. Here is what I ask you. Let us get through with it.

Mr. WITHERBE. I want to get through, if I can.

Mr. RANDELL. You said you wanted it so that it would give you nine-tenths of the market of the United States?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes. It never has been so.

Mr. RANDELL. Now, you admit that that would give the iron industry a monopoly almost all over the country; you admit that, do you not?

Mr. WITHERBE. No, sir; I do not.

61318-TARIFF-No. 16-08-7

Mr. RANDELL. Then you take that back?

Mr. WITHERBE. The cost of making pig iron might be less in the interior.

Mr. RANDELL. You are supposed to know something about it, in the ordinary condition of things?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. RANDELL. Would it not give the domestic manufacturer practically a monopoly in the balance of the country? If you control business by the effect of the tariff, you could control nine-tenths of the business in the port of New York?

Mr. WITHERBE. Practically, except that the one-tenth might influence the other nine-tenths in prices, which it does right along. Five thousand tons of that might influence the price of the sale of 50,000 tons of our ore.

Mr. RANDELL. If you will deal more in facts and less in speculation, I think we will get more information.

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANDELL. Then do you know of any reason why the foreign producer could compete with the domestic manufacturer in the balance of the United States under the conditions you have just stated, if the tariff would shut him out from nine-tenths of the trade in New York?

Mr. WITHERBE. That condition has never existed, you know.
Mr. RANDELL. I did not ask you that.

Mr. WITHERBE. It never has done it in the past, and I do not think we are going to raise the tariff now. Foreign ore goes up through Pittsburg, all through the Western States, and is landed in Philadelphia and New York at a price that is equal to the domestic.

Mr. COCKRAN. You have lost sight of your first statement; that is that you thought your industry could stand a reduction. You stated, did you not, I think, that if there is to be a reduction of the tariff your industry can stand its share?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. COCKRAN. Could you give us any idea of the reduction which your industry could stand?

Mr. WITHERBE. I stated, I think, about 15 or 20 per cent.

Mr. COCKRAN. I did not get that part of it.

Mr. WITHERBE. Fifteen or 20 per cent.

Mr. COCKRAN. You thought a reduction of 15 or 20 per cent?

Mr. WITHERBE. Yes.

Mr. COCKRAN. Thank you. I beg your pardon for asking you that over again.

Mr. Pou. Have you ever examined the steel schedule under the Wilson bill as compared with that under the McKinley bill?

Mr. WITHERBE. No, sir; I have not. My interest is entirely in iron ore and not in the manufacturer's end.

Mr. Pou. That is all.

STATEMENT OF MR. WILLIAM G. MATHER, OF CLEVELAND, OHIO.

Mr. MATHER. I represent the Lake Superior iron-ore industry, Mr. Chairman; that is, I have interests in Lake Superior iron ore, and I have come down to appear before the committee with reference to that industry. What Mr. Witherbe has said practically echoes