privations which had arisen from the war, the people had a right to enjoy the advantages resulting from peace; and that therefore it was wrong to impose those duties upon timber, the effect being to keep up the price as high as it was during hostilities. To the former part of the proposition he was ready to assent, but the necessities of the country did not permit him to act upon it. It was indispensably necessary that Ireland should make great sacrifices. He saw no prospect of a diminution of her burthens; and those who, like the right hon. baronet, well knew her financial state, would not be surprised therefore that peace had not brought with it to Ireland all the advantages which, under other circumstances, would have resulted from it. But it appeared to him, that the most favourable moment for imposing these duties, was the one when the price of the article was about to decline, because it prevented their imposition from being severely felt. The right hon. Daronet had adverted to one or two other topics, upon which it would only be necessary for him to say a word or two: the first was, the proposition for interposing, by a standing order, a certain delay in the progress of Taxbills relating to Ireland. That inconveniencies might ensue, in some instances, from bills of that description being passed without the means of communicating with Ireland, he did not deny; still less would he deny the respect which was due to the sense of his constituents, by every one who had a seat amongst them; but it was a principle quite new to him, and he be lieved quite new to the House, that when the representatives of the people were assembled, or ought to be assembled, it was necessary to impede the progress of public business, in order to have communications out of doors. His right hon. friend would, he was sure, upon a little reflection, see the serious inconvenience that must result from the adoption of such a measure. With regard to the very Act which it was now proposed to modify, an Act imposing duties of customs, if the delay proposed by the right hon. baronet had taken place, it would have led to such an extent of speculation, and produced so many other inconveniencies, that parliament would have felt itself bound to interfere to remedy them. [Mr. Ponsonby said, that the stock in hand might be surcharged after the passing of the Act]. Mr. W. Fitzgerald aid, that in many instances it might, in some it was the case; but there were many articles that could not be surcharged in that manner, and timber was one of them; not one out of fifty, which were the objects of the Custom Duties Bill, had been so charged, nor was it usual to charge them: that suggestion, indeed, would apply to whatever there was, of which excise had been usually taken. But it was not necessary now to enlarge upon this subject; it would be time enough to discuss it when the proposition was made. If the statement which he had made was not satisfactory, he should lament it. He should have gone perhaps into greater length, if he were not aware that almost every gentleman who now heard him was present upon a former occasion, when he went more into detail upon this subject. If he were called upon further, he might, he hoped, though it were irregular, be permitted to answer. He would just say, and he had almost forgotten to advert to it, that his right hon. friend had entirely omitted to observe, that timber, the growth of British America, was admitted almost free; that the staves of Quebec, which had been tried by the victualling board, had been deemed at least equal to those which had been generally used. He looked yet to British America as a great source of our supply, and as the means of still preserving our provision trade, which, after the restoration of general peace, must fail miserably, if the British shipping interests were not upheld. Another result he anticipated would be, as soon as competition was opened, the diminution of the native prices in Sweden and in Norway; such had been the result of the high duties in this country for a short interval, and it would have been the result in a greater degree, if the differences with America had not added the great freight and insurance to the expense of transport. The particular instruction to the committee, on which the question was now to be put, was a modification of the duty on staves: the small class were to be admitted at five shillings, and the colonial at one. The other point (he begged pardon for this desultory mode of debate), which had escaped his right hon. friend, was that which he had noticed before, that one third of these duties are to cease on the repeal of the war duties in Great Britain; and there was a provision in the Bill to that effect. He should only now repeat, that the object of the present Bill was merely to modify the duties of last session; and if the gentlemen thought it necessary to bring these duties under the consideration of the House in any other shape, the adoption of those modifications would not prevent them. Mr. Ponsonby thought it would be better to let the measure stand over, until communications could be received from the people concerned in the trade. As to the general principles which the right hon. gentleman had stated, he admitted them to be true; but particular circumstances might alter the application of those principles; and the case of Ireland, he thought, was precisely the one in which those circumstances were to be found as relative to the present tax. He put it to the British members who had visited that country, whether the small quantity of timber was not remarkable, and particularly in the growth of fir? The fact was, that this latter kind was in great disrepute at home; they would rather give a much higher price for the foreign. He could state a ridiculous instance, in which this fact was proved by an experiment of a friend of his. During the continuance of hostilities in the north, his friend wished to dispose of some old fir-trees; but the timber-merchant having offered him what he thought much under their value, on the ground that they were of home growth, the expedient adopted by the gentleman was, to ship them off to Cork, and then back again; after which he sold them at his own price, under the denomination of foreign timber. Mr. Ponsonby said, he knew the critical situation in which any man stood who had to tax Ireland: she was not in a situation to afford what was expected from her. As to the manner of estimating the proportion of contribution on the part of Ireland, which was adopted at the time of the Union, nothing could be more fallacious. The quantities of wine, spirits, and beer consumed, as compared with the consumption of the same articles in this kingdom, was taken as furnishing the proportion of their respective means; but any man who knew any thing of the habits of Ireland, must know that an individual possessed of any given property there, would consume much more than one possessed of the same fortune in Great Britain. But it was chargeable with another fallacy, that consumption was supposed to continue, though the very Act of Union brought many of its most wealthy residents to this country. He was solemnly of opinion, that Ireland was unable to supply her proportion, as regulated by this estimate. They ought now to see what the permanent good of Ireland required, and that required that the article under consideration should be kept as low as possible. The habitations of the peasantry were known to be small and dirty; the gentry of Ireland had manifested a great disposition to remedy this evil, and therefore it was a matter of vast importance that so desirable an object should not be impeded by any additional tax upon an article so necessary to its success. Mr. W. Fitzgerald said, that it would be impossible to adopt the advice of the right hon. gentleman. The sound interpretation of the Act of Union he deemed to be, that no tax could be imposed in Ireland upon a subject not taxed in England [here Mr. Ponsonby and sir J. Newport signified their dissent], nor could any article be taxed higher in Ireland than in England. He was surprised that the right. hon. gentlemen had not taken the same view that he did; and he confessed, that he should seek the authority of a resolu tion of that House, before he acted on their interpretation. But he really was not aware of any articles that could be taxed, or of any old one that would admit of such an increase of duty, as would supply the deficiency of revenue which must arise, if the House dissented now from the opinion which it had held before. Mr. Peel said, that he principally rose with the view of noticing two observations which had fallen in the course of this debate from the right hon. gentlemen opposite to him. In those observations he fully concurred, and he had heard them with great satisfaction. The right hon. baronet has said, that though the peasantry of Ireland were badly lodged, yet that they were well fed; that if you offered them wheaten bread, they would prefer their present diet to it; and that penury and scarcity must not be inferred, because they lived principally upon potatoes. The right hon. gentleman had said, that this was an improper season for laying heavy duties on timber, when the landed proprietors and landholders of Ireland evinced such a desire to ameliorate the condition of the peasantry, and to administer to their comforts and their happiness. He had heard these observations with real satisfaction, and for this reason, because they were in direct contradiction of certain unfounded and inflammatory statements which had proceeded from a IRISH SUPERINTENDING MAGISTRATES BILL.] Mr. Peel moved the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a committee on this Bill. Sir J. Newport said, he had no objection quarter from whence they might have been least expected, and which they least became. He was glad to find that the two right hon. gentlemen came forward, though not perhaps with that intention, to correct the gross delusion which pre-whatever to the principle of the measure; vailed in the country upon this subject, but he wished that, in conformity to the and to contradict, on authority which ancient law of England in this respect, the could hardly be questioned, the still more vicinage on which the provisions of the gross misrepresentation by which it was Bill were to operate, should be more disattempted to keep alive and propagate tinctly marked. In many cases the disthat delusion. He was glad to hear them turbance might exist in a single parish or tell this House and this country, that it townland; but by the use of the vague was not true, as had been asserted, that word barony,' it would frequently hap the peasantry of Ireland were in a worse pen that a large district, in which no fault condition than English swine; and that it had been committed, would nevertheless was a libel upon the landholders of Ire- be visited with punishment.-The House land, to publish to the world that they then resolved itself into the committee. had no interest in the prosperity of their tenantry, and that their sole object is to extract from the wretched peasant a rent which he cannot afford to pay. Mr. Peel concluded by saying, that he wished most sincerely, and every friend to Ireland must wish, that the comforts of the peasantry should be increased; he believed they were badly lodged, but he had every hope that their condition was in this respect improving. With regard to fuel and to food, he was perfectly satisfied that there were many parts of England in which the lower orders were infinitely worse provided with these essential articles of life than the lowest description of peasantry in Ireland. Mr. Courtenay declared, that there was a great and radical objection to a tax of this nature; it not only prevented improvements in habitations, but also in agriculture, and other branches of industry. There was a manifest spirit of improvement in Ireland, which this tax would check and diminish. No tax could be more injurious; and he could not agree that there existed no means of raising the sum upon a different article. Mr. Rose could not understand why the duties on timber should be so modified as to meet the purposes of agriculture in Ireland more than in England. He had always considered, from the moment of the Union, that the greatest care should be taken of the prosperity of Ireland; but there was no reason that any particular preference should be given to it. The measure of the right hon. gentleman appeared to him to be very just and proper. It was then agreed, that it should be an instruction to the committee to make a provision pursuant to the said resolution. Mr Peel expressed his concurrence in the propriety of the observations of the right hon. baronet. The fact was, that the Bill was introduced for the express purpose of lessening the burthens of the original measure. An inconvenience might arise, however, from confining the operation of it to a too limited a district. Indeed, it could hardly occur that a disturbance should take place in a single parish or townland; and if it did, the expense that would fall on that spot would be too enormous. Perhaps it might be well to give the lord lieutenant power to declare a part,' or parts,' in a state of disturbance, leaving the extent to his discretion. He would not actually pledge himself to the support of such a proposition; but he should like to hear what could be said in support of it; and it might be embodied in a clause, and annexed to the Bill at a subsequent period. Sir J. Newport said, that the mode hinted at by the right hon. gentleman met his ideas perfectly. His object was to narrow the visitation of the measure in any way that should make it commensurate with the district in which the fault had been committed. The Bill then went through the committee. HOUSE OF LORDS. The Duke of Norfolk gave notice of his intention, shortly after the recess, to submit a proposition to their lordships, the object of which would be an improvement in the mode, in certain' respects, of keeping the Journals of the House: particularly with reference to the mode of enter ing the divisions. What he meant to propose would be, to a certain extent, an innovation; on which account he was induced to give this early notice. PROPERTY TAX.] The Duke of Norfolk took occasion, seeing the noble earl in his place, to notice a circumstance which had made some impression on the public mind. He understood that some printed papers were circulated in London, which stated that the property tax was to be collected up to April 1816, as well as 1815. His grace was desirous to be informed, and he conceived that the public were entitled to some explanation of the fact, whether it was the intention of his Majesty's ministers that the operation of the Act should be so extended, as the present Act was to expire on the 5th of April, 1815? The Earl of Liverpool stated in answer, that it was of course impossible the measure alluded to could take place without the concurrence of parliament. If, therefore, it appeared to his Majesty's ministers, on a review of all the circumstances, that such an enlargement of the Act was necessary, due notice would be given, and the measure itself would be brought regularly before parliament. LORD WALSINGHAM.] The Prince Regent's Message, recommending the services of lord Walsingham to their lordships' consideration, being read, The Earl of Liverpool expressed his conviction, that it would be a waste of their lordships' time to preface his intended motion with any observations, after the vote which had already passed the other House. The ability, the integrity, the zeal and industry of the noble person alluded to, were fresh in their lordships' recollection, and they had carried the Address expressive of their approbation unanimously to the foot of the throne. He should therefore content himself with barely moving, in the present instance, for an Address, concurring in the Act of the other House of Parliament, by which an annuity of 2,000l. a year was voted to his lordship. The Duke of Norfolk stated, that he could not content himself with a silent vote on the present occasion. The business of the House bad benefitted in a great degree by the labours of the noble lord, and considerable facilities were created by his industry, to the progress both of private and public measures. He had, indeed, so regulated and methodised the office in which he presided, that the noble lord by whom he was succeeded, would find the duties of the situation much more easy of performance than in preceding instances. His grace concluded with observing, that no pension was ever better deserved, and he was confident none would be more cheerfully paid. The motion was agreed to nem. dis. AMERICAN WAR.] On the second reading of the Exchequer bills Bill, The Duke of Norfolk took occasion to advert to the state of affairs in America. The Speech of the Prince Regent, at the commencement of the session, had stated the anxious desire of his Royal Highness to put an end to hostilities with America; and if such was the desire of government, they would naturally refrain from every unnecessary expression which was calculated to irritate instead of producing reconciliation. In the Speech it was stated, that in the war the Americans had been the unprovoked aggressors. Without disputing about the question whether this was or was not the fact, the expression might have been spared; and where the object was to conciliate, it ought not to have been inserted. However, the Speech went on to state, that the war had been carried on with success; and in that respect the country had certainly been disappointed, as evidently appeared from the subsequent disasters on Lake Champlain and in other quarters. There were reports, too, that the war was carried on, not for the support of our maritime rights, or of any great principle, but merely for the aggrandizement of our territories in that country. A war carried on with such views, if they could be supposed to be the views of the British government, could not be expected soon to terminate, and could hardly be attended with ultimate success. The expense of such a war might be greater than the value of the whole in our possessions in America; and he therefore hoped that the British government would not insist upon any unreasonable concessions, but conduct the negociation in that manner, and with those views which were best calculated to attain the grand object of a speedy and honourable termination of the contest. The noble duke also wished to know why the official accounts of the transactions at Plattsburgh were withheld from the public. It was the duty of the government to communicate them, whenever they arrived in an authentic shape from the proper officer. The Earl of Liverpool was not aware that there was any thing in the observations of the noble duke that called upon him to trouble their lordships at any length. But as to the affair on Lake Champlain, it was known when the Prince Regent's Speech was delivered, and particularly referred to in that Speech. As to the non-publication of the dispatches relative to the transactions at Plattsburgh, government had some time ago received the accounts of the one description of service, but the publication had for reasons, of which the noble duke must be aware, been delayed till the accounts of the other description of service arrived. He had now however to inform the noble duke, that the accounts of both services had been received, and that those of the military and naval service would appear in the Gazette of Saturday. having in his absence given notice of a motion for the production of these papers. This was one of many points to which he should probably be under the necessity of calling their lordships' attention, before they went into that inquiry to which he was anxious to bring the utmost impartiality, and, if he might use the expression, a judicial mind. The noble lord had, with great candour, promised every possible information on the subject, and he had no doubt would willingly supply it. He did not wish this to be taken up as a party question; but an impression certainly prevailed, that there had been some mismanagement in the naval department, and it was therefore fitting that there should be inquiry, especially after the disasters which had taken place. It was due to the brave officers and men who had failen in the unequal contests to which they had been driven, that the matter should be thoroughly sifted. One subject on which it would be necessary to have some information was, the building of a class of vessels for the purpose of contending upon more NAVAL ADMINISTRATION.] The Earl of equal terms with the American sloops of Donoughmore rose, to make the motion war. These, instead of answering their of which he had given notice, on the purpose, had, if he was rightly informed, subject of the naval administration of been found to be almost useless. He might the country. The motion was for an Ad- be mistaken on this point, but at all events dress to the Prince Regent, praying" that it was necessary that information should he would be graciously pleased to lay on be procured respecting it upon which the the table, copies of representations made House could rely, that it might be ascerto his Royal Highness on the want of tained whether, after the experience which protection to trade, by the merchants and the Admiralty had derived from the disas ship-owners of Liverpool, Glasgow, Port-ters that had happened to some of our friGlasgow, Greenock, and London." The object of this motion was to show, that there existed in the country an impression that the naval department had been improperly conducted. The Bill was then read a second time. Viscount Melville did not mean to op pose the motion; indeed he stood pledged to their lordships to agree to it: but he now expressed his complete conviction that he could satisfy their lordships that the general statements in these papers were unfounded. In every war some vessels must be captured; but the general statements, as far as they were intended to establish a case against the Admiralty, were entirely incorrect, as he undertook to prove when the proper occasion arrived, He ought however to state, that he was not aware of any representation having been presented to the Prince Regent from London. The Earl of Darnley expressed his obligation to the noble earl near him, for gates, all this expense had been incurred without having answered any good purpose whatever. On this and other points he should probably submit motions to their lordships. The Address was agreed to. The Earl of Donoughmore then stated, that he had another motion to make connected with the same subject, for which a precedent had occurred at the period when lord Sandwich was at the head of the Admiralty. The motion was for the weekly accounts of the state of the naval force under sir Alexander Cochrane on the American station, from August last inclusive, up to the latest period at which the same could be made up. The reason why he moved for this return was, that he understood that representations had been made, that the Leander, which had been stationed off Boston to watch the Constitution American frigate, had been so much in want of stores, that if the Con |